Arthur Kamlet wrote:
....
- quote -

And even I have no quip in response to that...

--

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

In article <gsnpir$l8h$2[at]aioe.org> , dpb <none[at]non.net> wrote:
- quote -

And the pretty, nice, clean-cut, motherly-looking lady on the box,
later known as porn star Marilyn Chambers, died just a week or two ago.
--

ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Stuart A. Bronstein wrote:
- quote -

Actually, I didn't make it up, I borrowed it...(you do remember Ivory
soap I presume???)

--

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

dpb <none[at]non.net> wrote:
- quote -

And of course, 83.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Stu

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Paul Thomas, CPA wrote:
....
- quote -

Snort, chuckle...

What about the computer-'bot generated letter? <g, d&r
--

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"dpb" <none[at]non.net> wrote
- quote -



I can unplug the IRS computer. Can't say the same for an IRS employee.




--
Paul Thomas, CPA
Watkinsville, Georgia

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Apr 21, 1:46*pm, nonse...[at]mynonsense.net wrote:
- quote -

OK. So you have an IRS that doesn't understand the tax code either,
and you want THEM to review your taxes and help you personally? That
sounds a bit crazy to me. I would think that you would want someone
who you thought actually understood things help you.

And the sheer size of the tax code is only really relevant if it ALL
applied to you. I would venture to suggest that the vast majority of
the provisions don't apply to most taxpayers. I expect that even for
really complicated tax returns, only a small fraction of the total
code is applicable. So you really only need to understand enough to
handle your tax situation. And you do have a choice is making at
least parts of this a lot simpler -- although the various phase-outs
do make it more difficult to avoid some of the hassles, at least if
you do your taxes entirely by hand.

- quote -

I'm not sure how this reply responds to the original.

In any case, I guess I don't quite understand exactly what sort of
personal "customer service" you would like to receive from the IRS.

Are you requesting that they audit your return every year before
accepting it?
Do you want someone from the IRS to come to your home and ask
questions about your income, examine your financial records, etc. and
then help you prepare a return?

Do you just want the quality of advice provided by phone to improve?
(I could go for that one).

And how much would you be willing to pay for this service? After all
it would have to be paid for by someone, either through a direct
charge, higher taxes in general, or a reduction of some other federal
expenditure that we've (collectively) decided that we would really
like to have. It would be a bit of a hard sell to argue that the vast
majority of taxpayers who have simple returns should have to pay extra
to support the few with really complicated financial dealings.
Presumably those with such complicated finances are doing well enough
that they should be able to pay their own way.

- quote -

The IRS doesn't forbid you to use professionals either. Just like the
building and safety department didn't require me to use a contractor
to work on my kitchen. I could have done all the work myself, subject
to their inspection. It's just that, in that case, I felt it was a
bigger job than I could handle alone. So I chose to hire a general
contractor to do the work.

So the IRS (or more properly Congress -- who actually sets the rules)
takes the viewpoint that rational adults will be able to decide on
their own if they are up to the task of filling out the required tax
returns. For most people, this is fairly simple. If it isn't, then
there are resources available in the private sector to provide
assistance.

- quote -

Lots of things in modern society violate human nature and require
training. Most jobs are that way. So is driving a car. It's highly
unnatural. So is using a cell phone. Part of the price of living in
a modern industrial society is learning how to operate within the
rules of that society. The US requires you to file tax returns. It's
not clear what better alternative there might be.

It sounds like you would prefer that the IRS just send you a bill
every March 15th, which was due within 30 days. Would that be
preferable? Is that what you would like better?

- quote -

Of course there is always the extreme case of reducing your income to
the point where you are no longer required to file a return. Now
that's simplification! But I'll pass on that one. I have a few banks
that I need to support....

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

PeterL wrote:
....
- quote -

I'd say 99.44% of all taxpayers don't want any contact with the IRS,
human _or_ otherwise...

--

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

nonsense[at]mynonsense.net wrote:

- quote -

That's not what I get when I re-read your OP. It sounds like you are
saying, "I pay a lot of taxes relative to most, so I should get VIP
treatment from the IRS regarding my return preparation and acceptance".


- quote -

Appraisers? Divorce attorneys?

If you pay someone to calculate what you owe, you should get some
guarantees from that person regarding a calculation that is too high or
too low.

-Mark Bole

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

<nonsense[at]mynonsense.net> wrote
- quote -




There is no need to understand all of it. There are relatively few pages
that actually relate to the average Joe's situation over their entire
lifetime. Now, that's not to imply that it's an easy read. War and Peace
as related by Joel Chandler Harris' Uncle Remus would be easier to
understand. But, you don't need a current copy of a Chilton's manual for
your make of vehicle to know how to drive it. In fact you hardly know all
the rules of the road and various traffic laws, yet you do fine on the roads
99.99% of the time. Same for those thousands of pages of tax code. You
don't need to know most of it to prepare a complete and proper tax return.




- quote -


They can't, and I hope they never do. Besides, Congress would have to
mandate that.




- quote -




For the same reason someone uses an oil change place instead of doing it
themselves.

Less messy. Quicker.


Look, Title 26 consists of 11 Subtitles (A-K) of which most people have to
deal with Subtitle A, which has 6 Chapters (2 have been repealed). Throw
out the one on consolidated returns and withholding on non-residents and
alien corporations, and that leaves Normal taxes and Surtaxes, and
Self-Employment Tax (2 Chapters) that might apply to most people at some
point in their life.

Of Chapter 1-Normal Taxes and Surtaxes, the following Subchapters might
apply at some point in someone's life for tax purposes:
Subchapter A-Determination of Tax Liability
Subchapter B-Computation of Taxable Income
Subchapter O-Gain or Loss on Disposition of Property
Subchapter P-Capital Gains and Losses


The remainder barely apply to most businesses, entities or other
institutions. The point is that if you are to get into the banking or
insurance business organized as a partnership or "S" corporation, you might
need to find out more about the tax and legal implications of doing so,
before doing so. Otherwise, just skip over those couple of thousand pages.


Take Subchapter B from Chapter 1. There are 11 Parts, of which most people
can shave off a few that just don't relate, like Part IV-Tax Exemption
Requirement for State and Local Bonds, Part VIII-Special Deductions for
Corporations, Part X-Terminal Railroad Corporations and their Shareholders,
Part XI-Special Rules Relating to Corporate Preference Items.

Within the Parts that might apply, there are sections that may not, like §
280E. Expenditures in connection with the illegal sale of drugs. The
income from the sale of illegal drugs would be taxable income, but the
expenses of that illegal drug business are not deductible. Of course, you
don't need to ever know that to prepare your return properly.





How many pages of tax code actually impact any given individual's return
will vary with the complexity, but it's a shy number compared to the tens of
thousands of pages of actual tax code that exist and apply to businesses,
governments and other entities and activities.










--
Paul Thomas, CPA
Watkinsville, Georgia

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Apr 20, 11:40*am, nonse...[at]mynonsense.net wrote:
- quote -

Not when you buy it pre-made from a grocery store.

- quote -


99% of the tax payer don't want any human contact with the IRS.

- quote -


How many more auditors would this take, and how much more time would
this take?

- quote -

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Apr 20, 12:40 pm, nonse...[at]mynonsense.net wrote:
- quote -

The IRS does not even review all tax return numbers after submission.
I think I read recently in an article in the NY Times that the audit
frequency is now around 1%. Granted certain items on a return may
raise a red flag and increase the chances of an audit by a lot.

If your income is low enough and other criteria are met, you can find
a VITA (google on this) office where a live person, trained by the
IRS, will do your taxes.

There is also live IRS phone help and IRS offices where a person can
walk in, especially for assistance with a problem.

So it is not true that there is no human interaction at all. It is far
from a perfect system but given the constraints (which others point)
of the problem, only small improvements can be made each year. Write
your members of Congress to promote more improvements.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Apr 20, 2:58 pm, Tom Russ <t...[at]isi.edu> wrote:

- quote -

The tax code is thousands of pages long, nobody can be expected to
understand all of it, not even the IRS.

- quote -

Sounds like a problem of nobody wanting to assume the responsibility.
Each government agency just wants to keep doing what they are doing,
regardless if it is wrong in the greater scheme of things. It's one of
the reasons for the recent wall street collapse, so seems like we may
be overdue for an IRS collapse...

- quote -

My post is not about me, but about the IRS in general. The IRS does
not mandate people use professional tax preparers, so why would
someone? No human beings are trained to pay someone to calculate how
much money they have to pay someone else. That just violates basic
human nature.

- quote -

I agree, doing things simply is the way to go.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

In article
<b82e22f1-1ec7-44eb-8b77-0b475854693f[at]z23g2000prd.googlegroups.com> ,
Tom Russ <tar[at]isi.edu> wrote:

- quote -

I suspect the real (and probably justified) reason is that there is a
perhaps small but still significant fraction of the population who are
either simply unable or simply unwilling to deal in a productive or
effective way with an agency like the IRS in a face to face encounter
concernng a technical matter like taxes; and the IRS may not want to
have to either invest the very large amount of wasted time that can be
incurred in such encounters, or incur the wrath if they simply "close
the window" on such an individual.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Apr 20, 2:40*pm, nonse...[at]mynonsense.net wrote:
- quote -

contacting
you about your return. My cursory reaction is that I liked the old
system better;
however, I understand why they have changed. Even though IRS
employees
receive extensive training and are adequately paid, they are wrong
almost half
the time. Therefore, if a taxpayer's return is in the hands of an
incompetent
IRS employee, on their own they are unlikely to surmount this obstacle
and will
probably give up.

The IRS, like many companies, is focused on getting their software to
do the work,
not the employees. The likelihood of them using a system where they
provide
you with the name and contact information for a real person is zilch.
I just wish they
wouldn't let the computers generate more letters than they have
employees available
to handle the responses.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Alan wrote:
- quote -

Right. You are not a customer of the IRS, so why would you expect
customer service? Write your Congressperson if you don't like it.


- quote -

Note that under this option, you still pretty much have to complete your
tax return yourself, but the IRS will "calculate your tax" (look up your
tax in the tax tables). Not really the same thing. For example, even
if you are not itemizing for the current year, but you got a state tax
refund (Form 1099-G), they won't be able to help you.

The OP alluded to "tens of thousands of dollars" of tax liability, which
makes it highly unlikely he will pass the "taxable income under $100K"
test for this option.

-Mark Bole

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Alan wrote:
- quote -

Right. You are not a customer of the IRS, so why would you expect
customer service? Write your Congressperson if you don't like it.


- quote -

Note that under this option, you still pretty much have to complete your
tax return yourself, but the IRS will "calculate your tax" (look up your
tax in the tax tables). Not really the same thing. For example, even
if you are not itemizing for the current year, but you got a state tax
refund (Form 1099-G), they won't be able to help you.

The OP alluded to "tens of thousands of dollars" of tax liability, which
makes it highly unlikely he will pass the "taxable income under $100K"
test for this option.

-Mark Bole

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Tom Russ wrote:
- quote -

Not only will the IRS calculate your tax, they will give you up
to an extra 30 days to pay your tax bill without interest.

From IRS Pub 967:

"You can have the IRS figure your tax on Form 1040EZ, Form 1040A,
or Form 1040 if you file your return by April 15, 2009.
If you paid too much, we will send you a refund. If you did not
pay enough, we will send you a bill for the balance. To avoid
interest or the penalty for late payment, you must pay the bill
within 30 days of the date of the bill or by the due date for
your return, whichever is later.
The IRS will also figure the credit for the elderly or the
disabled, the earned income credit, and the recovery rebate credit."

There are some eligibility rules, such as you can't itemize and
you can't be using certain forms or schedules, but other than
that, this is a great deal. See IRS Pub 967 for detail
instructions on how to complete your tax return. There is no
check box on the tax return.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Apr 20, 11:40*am, nonse...[at]mynonsense.net wrote:
- quote -

Well, there are a number of reasons for this and at least one solution
for you. Among the reasons for not involving the IRS directly is

1. A presumption that you will do things correctly. And that you
don't need help.

2. A desire to have the returns in by a particular common deadline
for everyone (simplifies things, but bunches everything into a short
time period).

3. The fact that the IRS doesn't get the money you are paying. It is
the government itself. So, any additional service of the type that
you desire would have to be financed by an additional user fee. The
IRS is just trying to efficiently collect the money that is owed. An
imperfect analogy might be that the payment processing center that you
send your home-owners insurance check to doesn't engage in any
customer service. They just take your policy number and check and
handle that part of the transaction. It is up to you to decide what
sort of coverage you want or need.

And the SOLUTION. Actually a couple of them, but #1 is closest to
what you want.

1. There are any number of highly qualified and friendly
professionals that will be willing to give you the kind of customer
service you desire. Some of them even post regularly to this forum.
And the benefit is that you get to choose your own personal "customer
service representative", rather than leaving it up to the government
to choose one for you.

2. Also, can't you have the IRS calculate your taxes for you? Isn't
there still a check box for having them do the computation, at least
for an uncomplicated return?

3. You can take steps to simplify your financial life. Work for
wages. Invest only in bank savings accounts, CDs. Don't itemize
deductions. Then you don't have to worry at all about any of the
complicated stuff.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

<nonsense[at]mynonsense.net> wrote in message
news:526590e4-30ff-46ef-94f0-c8d51ddbea75[at]21g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

I'm surprised. Given that you have a masters in engineering, I would think
you would be happier dealing with the IRS computers rather than the IRS
humans. I know I am, but I only have a BS in engineering.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >