On Mar 24, 1:54 pm, Mark Bole <ma...[at]pacbell.net> wrote:
- quote -

Stepdaughter, actually. I paid her rent at various
rehab centers and halfway houses, certainly more
that she received in food stamps.

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

--
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Mark Bole wrote:
....
- quote -

I had thought the discussion had moved past the determination at that
point -- I was speaking to the philosophical question at that point...

But, if the dependent is <50%, _someone_ (or groups of someones) must be
making up the rest, ergo > 50%.

Here from OP's posting the father seemed the likely candidate. That
isn't the specific wording/requirement of the IRS code, granted, but
that wasn't intent here.

--

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Charles Packer wrote:
- quote -

One more time: to determine whether a child can be claimed by anyone as
a dependent, it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT whether the parent (or other
potential claimee) paid more than half of support. All that matters is
that the child did not pay more than half of his OWN support.

Support is independent of income. Funds for support can include
savings, loans, gifts, inheritances, wages, investment income, illegal
income, and nontaxable government aid. What matters is what did it
cost, and who paid it.

- quote -

I expect my kids to mow the grass and take out the garbage, at minimum.

- quote -

I wonder what the VITA appointment schedule looks like these last three
weeks before filing deadline...but your step-grandson surely can file an
extension request without anyone's assistance.

While you're at it, you better check to see if you are actually entitled
to claim your adult daughter as your own dependent.

-Mark Bole

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Charles Packer wrote:
- quote -

We do typically think of such children as at least owing their parents
the dependent exemption on the parents' annual taxes, as long as said
children live at least six months with a parent and the parent
provides over half the child's support blah blah.

Where would this boy have lived and how would he have fed himself had
his father not supported him for some six months in the tax year in
question? No fair interjecting that the father stunk because of this
or that. Did the father provide food and shelter to keep the boy alive
and without breaking the law?

--
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Charles Packer wrote:
- quote -


"Fair" has little to do w/ IRS Code... (or perhaps?)

I tend to agree that underage working kids get short shrift on some of
the provisions as compared to adults--perhaps that's intentional in the
Code to try to convince them they ought to stay in school.

--

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On Mar 22, 9:23*pm, dpb <n...[at]non.net> wrote:
- quote -

You mean that, in effect, the son is assuming the tax
burden for the time his father was supporting him?
But he wasn't working while living with his father, and
we typically don't think of a non-working juvenile as
owing anything to his parents.

On recomputing his tax without the exemption for self,
I find that, at his low income level, it doubles his
tax, and this seems to be unfair. In fact, I'm going to
urge him to have the returns looked over by one of
those tax clinic volunteers to make sure I haven't
missed something.

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Charles Packer wrote:
....
- quote -

One might say he already has by contributing more than 50% of son's
annual support...

--

--
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On Mar 21, 11:40 am, paultry <afn0255...[at]afn.org> wrote:
- quote -

Interesting. Yes, I re-read the rules on who must file
and I see that he has to file...and line 6a says "If
someone can claim you as a dependent" you can't claim
the exemption for self. This is fundamentally unfair to
anybody in grandson's position. the father benefits by
claiming him as a dependent, and he has to pay "extra"
for not being able to exempt himself. There seems to be
an assumption here that the father will make it up to
his son somehow.

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

--
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paultry wrote:
- quote -

And OP can instead tell grandson "welcome to the real world", huh!!???

--

--
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Charles Packer wrote:

- quote -

No, Dad can claim Son, but Son still has to file a return,
report his own income, and pay tax on that income. In fact,
Son's tax amount will be greater because he can't claim an
exemption for himself.

--
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On Mar 20, 9:22 am, "Phil Marti" <prm20...[at]verizon.net> wrote:
- quote -

....and he didn't pay for more than half his support,
I'm sure. His father certainly can claim him. So I'm
sure I can correctly tell grandson: Ask your dad
to claim you, then you won't have to pay those taxes
I calculated that you owe because you foolishly didn't
let your employers withhold enough. But then he's going
to say: How do I get back what _was_ withheld? And
all I can say at this point is: I dunno...maybe it's
up to your Dad. True?

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

--
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"Phil Marti" <prm20871[at]verizon.net> wrote in message
news:gHPwl.1395$SU3.1359[at]nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
- quote -

Since he is under age 19 on December 31, how much he actually earned has no
bearing. What he did with his income (i.e. put towards his support or not)
does.

--
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"Charles Packer" wrote:

- quote -

We're back to his support. The question is whether your grandson provided
more than half his own support for the year. If he did, he's nobody's
dependent and claims his own personal exemption. If he didn't, only his
father (or possibly someone else living in that household more than 6
months) can claim him. (I'm assuming his parents don't live together.)

- quote -

W-2 income is reported on only the return of the person who earned it. That
includes dependents.

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

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On Mar 19, 5:04 pm, "Paul Thomas, CPA" <paulthomascp...[at]bellsouth.netwrote:

- quote -

No, he lives alone. He lived with his father until
Sept. of last year, so I presume he could be claimed
as a dependent by his father. Incidentally, I'm
claiming his mother as a dependent. Don't tell me I
could have claimed him through his mother! It's too late;
I've already filed.

At this point, what I want to know is this:
what are the mechanics of claiming a dependent when
said dependant has worked and has a W2? I can't
recall anywhere seeing instructions on that say
"attach dependents' W2 here..."

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"Frank S. Duke, Jr." wrote:

- quote -

This is incorrect. The support test for a qualifying child is whether the
CHILD provided more than half his own support.

See Publication 501.
--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

in article
9eacb881-d4ad-4e65-8445-18b26cac07e8...oglegroups.com, Charles
Packer at mailbox[at]cpacker.org wrote on 3/19/09 3:01 PM:

- quote -

provide more than 1/2 of his support and your grandson had to live with his
father more than 1/2 the year. Attending college or boarding school is
considered a temporary absence and is ignored. Support is everything the
young man spent to live, room, board, tuition, spending money, medical
insurance, car insurance, utilities, etc.

So the first question is where did he live and for how long and the second
is who provided his support?

Uncompensated advice guaranteed correct or double your money back

Frank S. Duke, Jr. CPA
Cincinnati, OH USA

--
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"Charles Packer" <mailbox[at]cpacker.org> wrote
- quote -



He's not old enough to participate in EITC,





- quote -



Maybe. The facts and circumstances would dictate if he's a dependent of
someone else.





- quote -



Maybe they would. If "father" provided more than half his support for the
year, then "father" can claim him. If "father" didn't provide more than
half his support for the year, then.....maybe he's not a dependent.

Does he live with you? Maybe you are providing more than half his support.
If not for 2008, then maybe for 2009.

Dig around some more about the dependency rules to see where he falls for
2008 and looking forward, for 2009.





--
Paul Thomas, CPA
Watkinsville, Georgia

--
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If your grandson provides over 1/2 his own support then his father is
NOT eligible to claim him as a dependent.

--
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"Charles Packer" wrote:

- quote -

As one of those volunteers I can assure you they're well trained, and
they've seen just about every kind of family situation you can imagine if
they've been at it for any time.

The rules for determining dependency are in IRS Publication 501. It's not
dealer's choice. Either he can be claimed by his father or he cannot. If
his father can claim him he can't claim his own personal exemption even if
his father doesn't claim it.

I'm not sure whether you were talking about only him regarding the Earned
Income Credit or also his father. As you note, he's not eligible, but if
his father is and the son was a qualifying child for EIC, it could be to the
father's advantage. Note that he could be a qualifying child for EIC even
if his father can't claim him as a dependent. Those rules are in the 1040
instructions.

It would be best for all concerned if he and his father discussed this, but
you know the family dynamics. If it's best for them not to talk right now,
he can go ahead and file according to the rules. The downside is that if he
and his father file conflicting returns, the IRS will be in touch with both
of them to resolve it.

See "family dynamics" above, but I wouldn't get in the middle of it on a
bet. Send him to a clinic if he won't talk to his father about it.

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

My 18-year-old step-grandson wants me to do his taxes.
It seemed straightforward -- just a bunch of W2s
from his several jobs -- until I started to think
too much...like maybe there's this earned income
thing that applies to people who are poor...like
maybe he should be claimed as a dependent by his
father. Never having had children myself, I realized
I was in the woods, maybe in the swamp,
tax-rules-wise.

He made only about $10K, but he doesn't qualify for
the earned income credit because he's under 25.
This seemed unfair to me until I realized that he
could be claimed as a dependent by his father,
(whose house he fled when he turned 18).
On the basis of pure logic, then, that must be the most
advantageous thing to do. However, I don't want to
lay it on him that he has to negotiate with his father
unless absolutely necessary. Maybe I should just
send him to one of those free tax clinics that are
available around this time of year. But will their
volunteers know enough to navigate a situation
like this?

--
Charles Packer
http://cpacker.org/whatnews
mailboxATcpacker.org

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >