In article <Uvoll.5187$%54.1519[at]nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com> ,
Mark Bole <makbo[at]pacbell.net> wrote:
- quote -

Not everything.

Consider payments made to the last survivor of a group (a tontine),
who only lives 10 minutes longer than the second-last. He (his
estate) pays income tax on the proceeds.

Seth

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Alan wrote:
- quote -

Cesarean section?

Isn't almost everything related to income-tax granular only down to the
daily level, fun discussions on this board about business payments made
and received in different time zones on New Year's Eve notwithstanding? ;-)

-Mark Bole

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Mark Bole wrote:
- quote -

Hey Mark,

I've never heard about simultaneous births of twins. I have
always observed that the births were sequential. As such, one of
the twins would be the younger one. I don't believe the IRS would
argue the point.

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In article <Ydhll.16146$YU2.15364[at]nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com> ,
Mark Bole <makbo[at]pacbell.net> wrote:
- quote -




Sure. Or has more than $400 in netincome from self emoployment.

Or files to claim the stimulus rfund or rebate credit.

- quote -

My bad. Should have read: files for any reason other than to receive
a refund of tax paid.


- quote -




The twin paradox would be the same if the kids were aged 1 year apart.



So, yes, this new set of rules (Oh, isn't it fun learning a new set of rules
under the rubric of "Uniform Definition of Qualifying child : "
applies a new dfinition of qualifying child -- must be younger than you.


And the new "higher AGI rule" is really a return to those thrilling
days of yesteryear, when higher AGI was the rule!




- quote -


--


ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

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Arthur Kamlet wrote:

- quote -


- quote -


- quote -

(including those who receive Advance EIC).

- quote -

correction: "files to receive the EIC". Someone who files only to
receive a refund of tax paid is no longer considered "a taxpayer".

That notice resolved the Qualifying Relative (QR) issue, but has nothing
to do with the "twin paradox". The QR issue was resolved so that
Adult_1 can now claim live-in Adult_2 plus child if Adult_2 is not a
taxpayer.

However, I can answer my own question: if the new rule is that QC must
be strictly younger than taxpayer, as opposed to "not older than", the
twin paradox is resolved as neither brother is a QC with respect to the
other (neither is strictly younger than the other).


-Mark Bole

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<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Mark Bole wrote:
- quote -

exemption but whose child meets the definition for the CTC.

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<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

In article <hQLkl.22657$ZP4.18189[at]nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com> ,
Mark Bole <makbo[at]pacbell.net> wrote:
- quote -




IRS Notice 2008-5, Qualifying Relative for Purposes of Section 152(d)(1)
resolved that issue. It noticed that "cannot be the qualifying child of
ANY OTHER TAXPAYER" could be resolved by defining Any Other Taxpayer to
be someone who:

i) is required to file a tax return, or

ii) is not required, but files only to receive a refund of tax paid.


- quote -


Nor have I.


It is used to notify the IRS that someone who fails to qualify as
a dependent, does qualify for child tax credit.

For example, a person who fails the joint return test cannot be
claimed as a dependent. But the child tax credit does not have
a joint return test.
--


ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

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removeps-groups[at]yahoo.com wrote:

- quote -

I don't want to post a link to a non-tax related site, but if you go to
"urban dictionary dot com" and search for "SOL", you will have an
accurate answer.

-Mark Bole

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<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Feb 11, 6:30 pm, Mark Bole <ma...[at]pacbell.net> wrote:

- quote -

What is SOL?

- quote -

A higher AGI may phase out the exemption (although this phaseout is
itself phasing out and will vanish in 2010) -- but it has to pretty
high.

- quote -

All people -- the grand-child P1, the parent P2, the grand-parent P3
-- live in the same house. P1 is claimed as a dependent of P3. The
computer program will find people who live in the same house as P1 and
P3, and will find P2. The computer program has in its database a
record of the birthdays of each social security number. If the age
difference between P3 and P1 is larger than the age difference between
P2 and P1, and the age difference between P2 and P1 is more than 15
(since 15 is about the earliest age to have a kid), then check if the
AGI of P3 is larger than the AGI of P2, and if not flag the return for
manual check.

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<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Alan wrote:
- quote -

Thank you for the reminder. I hope these changes are to resolve some of
the anomalies and paradoxes created by the original UDC in 2005, as
documented in letter to IRS commissioner from president of NAEA on Feb
6, 2006 (which I first read in a discussion in this newsgroup).

The following are not likely to come up much in practice, but for
discussion I'm thinking aloud..(pardon my noise).


- quote -

Does that resolve the "twin paradox"?

"Twin nineteen-year old brothers live together in their home and attend
school full-time. Their parents are deceased. The brothers do not
provide more than half of their own support. Although they have part
time jobs and earn about $5,000 annually, their principal support comes
from their aunts and uncles who together contribute about $25,000 per
brother towards their household and college expenses. The aunts and
uncles do not live with the brothers. Each brother meets the
definition of a qualifying child with respect to the other. Putting
the dependency rules together with this, if each twin is able to claim
the other as a dependent, it means that the other one cannot because a
dependent cannot have dependents. However, since neither can be
claimed, it means they can have dependents. This loop continues
endlessly - we now have the qualifying child paradox.
The intent of the law could not have been to create a situation where
the outcome of applying the law cannot be determined. "



- quote -

There previously was a *dependency* requirement involving no MFJ filing,
with an exception if three tests were met (involving tax liability if
filing separately, etc). This makes that moot, I assume, if the
dependency is based on QC instead of QR -- now an exception based on one
test, instead of three.


- quote -

I wonder if the parents can tweak the AGI by filing separately,
especially in a community property state where community income is
allocated 50-50. Fortunately, it's usually the taxpayer with the higher
AGI who will make the household better off by claiming the child anyway
(but EIC could push that either way).

As for due diligence, how are paid preparers supposed to document
eligibility of Grandparent to claim the dependent (and related tax
benefits), if Grandparent knows neither the AGI nor taxpayer ID of the
parents? Ditto for the IRS... In other words, if parents do not
actually claim the dependent, how will anyone know for sure if the test
is met?

- quote -

That's not one I've ever seen in my recent experience.

-Mark Bole

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<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Just a reminder that changes to the Uniform Definition of a Child
went into effect 1/1/09.

1. Qual. Child now has to be younger than the taxpayer.

2. Qual. Child can't file a joint return with a spouse unless it
is merely to obtain a full refund of withheld taxes.

3. In the instance when parent(s) have a qualifying child but opt
not to claim that child as a qualifying child, no other taxpayer
can claim that child as a qualifying child unless that taxpayer
has an AGI that is higher than the highest AGI of any parent.

Here's an example: The child is the qualifying child of the
parent and grandparent because they all live together. Parent &
grandparent could decide in 2008 who should claim the child for
the best benefit. Now, if the grandparent has an AGI that is not
higher than the parent, the grandparent is SOL. This example
presents the same problem for other family members who are all
living together and have the same qualifying child.
E.g., 2 siblings one of which is the parent of the qualifying child.

4. If you have a qualifying child under the age of 17 (CTC
qualified) you can only obtain the CTC if you actually claim a
dependency exemption for that child.

If you want to know who this impacts, see IRS Form 8901.

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<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >