On Jan 1, 2:05*pm, "Don Priebe" <pri...[at]iname.com> wrote:
- quote -

I understand what you are saying. I should myself have said "you could
implement a
complete tax calculation software that prudces 1040 efile format"
rather than saying
"implementing a 1040 efile". The former is what I really intended to
express.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

- quote -

The e-file system is a trivial exercise compared to calculating the tax
return in the first place. An e-file is simply a series of records that
replicate the numbers on a properly filled out paper return*. The exact
required format of each record is well documented in Pub 1346. Figuring out
the numbers to put on that paper return in the first place is the hard part.

--
Don EA in Upstate NY

[* Yes, I know that there are data that must be included in an e-file that
are not required on a paper return. But these are either explicitly stated
in other source documents (e.g. EINs) or factual data that should be known
by the taxpayer (e.g. his birthday or the SSN of a non-dependent listed on
line 4 of the 1040.]

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Dec 31, 12:21*pm, Mark Bole <ma...[at]pacbell.net> wrote:

- quote -

That is a good idea. Basically, each quarter I would have a new file
that contains the cumulative income (etc) up to that point, and then
pay
the total taxes owed minus whatever I already paid the previous
quarters.

- quote -

No doubt, but said spreadsheet is a jumble of data and equations, and
trying to separate the data into one worksheet and the equations into
another
would be a monstrous undertaking of reverse engineering for someone
that did
not write nor understand the structure of the logic.

The easy solution would be write a Perl script that turned a bunch of
published
equations into Perl or Matlab or Octave or VB. It should not be all
that much work
if only equations and formulas were published. Too bad they are not.

- quote -

I burned myself before, hence the current interest in the topic :-)

- quote -

I'm one of those less common cases where it really has been making
a difference lately.

Lots of good advice today. I think the moral of the story is that the
world
needs open-source tax software that is user-extensible. That could get
really
exciting (in a good way :-)).

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Dec 31 2008, 3:47*am, AES <sieg...[at]stanford.edu> wrote:
- quote -

Tax law is not the only kind of law that can legally be applied
retroactively (only criminal law cannot be retroactive, except insofar
as it deals with amounts of tax due) but it's the main one. Taxes are
often imposed or changed as of the date of a policy announcement (or
soon thereafter) to avoid distorting taxpayers' activities. A more
expansive reading of the exceptions to the ban on ex post facto laws
appears in the Wikipedia page on that subject -- which mentions
administrative laws but not specifically tax laws. (Googling
"retroactive tax laws" yields a lot more on that subject.)

The worst taxes of all are debt deflation (loss of value of your
assets while your debt remains unchanged) and inflation (loss of value
of your savings). We are facing both now; my guess is that the house
price crisis will be resolved by massive general inflation due to the
printing of money (and so foreign bondholders will share in that
"tax"). But then I'm only halfway through Galbraith's book on the
Great Depression and Christina D. Romer's article on "What Ended the
Great Depression?" -- so what do I know.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

reikred[at]gmail.com wrote:

- quote -

I'm pretty sure you could use the previous year's tax program to create
a dummy return and get numbers that are within a few percent of being
"perfect". It would be nice to have a little switch that would allow
you to use the previous year's tax laws but enter dates for the current
year, but you can fake it in your head pretty easily.


- quote -

With MS Excel you can link to other worksheets (data ranges) or even an
MS Access database. It is possible to separate logic and data. Or, if
you are already prepared to program in VB, just use MS Access itself.


- quote -

In my original reply, I raised the issue of cost vs. benefit. If you
spend 20 hours programming, testing, and debugging something to only
save a $20 penalty or earn an extra $20 interest, is it really worth it?
I'm claiming you could probably get as close as that just by using
last year's software as a planning tool.

In my experience, both on my own taxes and those of clients, it is a
very small minority who need the annualized method on Form 2210 (I
assume this is what you are mostly referring to here). Since no one
issues 1099's and 1098's and W-2's more than once a year, even with a
perfect software tool, you'd still have to spend a lot of time
segregating all your income and deductions by each estimated tax
"quarter" (unless your only entries are on a Schedule C or Schedule E,
but again, how common is that?)

-Mark Bole

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

jIM wrote:

- quote -


TurboTax has had an education credit vs. deduction optimizer including
all students covered on the return for many years now (even before the
tuition and fees deduction was created, it still helped you choose the
best combination of Hope and Lifetime Learning credits).

I can only assume that other major players have the same feature.

-Mark Bole

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Dec 31, 7:52*am, Mark Bole <ma...[at]pacbell.net> wrote:
- quote -

Here's my favorite example: I use a commercially available spreadsheet
(hint: sometimes discussed in this very newsgroup) to do my form 2210
estimated tax calculations. It is a great product, but being a
spreadsheet it has some inherent limitations.

The main distinguishing feature of a spreadsheet relative to an
interactive calculation language (think Visual Basic for a mainstream
example) is that a spread sheet is a mixture of the data with the
logic/equations. There is not simple way to separate the two.

Hence, if you want to do something new, something different, or just
port the data to a new release of the spreadsheet, you are looking at
lots of manual work.

Now, there are other languages where you could easily jigger up the
calculations in a form where the data and the equations/logic are
separated. Personally I would use Matlab or Octave (free almost-clone
of matlab) and I would literaly be able to write the programs in the
form I previously alluded to, that is

//some form1040 equations written in matlab or octave
form1040.line76.purpose= "Amount You Owe";
form1040.line76 = form1040.line63 - form1040.line72;

I could save the data very easily, and I could separate and modify the
code easily. This is what I had in mind. On top of that I could do all
kinds of graphing, generate reports, etc. Operations that I find very
cumbersome in spreadsheets.

If you were real ambitious, you could implement all of 1040 efile in
this manner. I don't care so much about the interview system, but you
could do that as well.

In summary:

1. commercial packages do not implement form 2210 (as an example)
2. form 2210 spreadsheet is cumbersome (as an example)
3. there are better ways, if only the equations where available.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Dec 30, 7:09*pm, Harlan Lunsford <luns...[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

I downloaded the 1346-series pdf files and they do indeed contain
every last detail about every last form as part of this "1040 e-file"
package. All field codes, field byte sizes etc etc are there in gory
detail.

BUT: As moderator said, there appears to be no equations included, so
those must be manually deduced. Too bad.

Harlan and moderator: Certainly the equations cannot capture which
fields and worksheets you need to fill out in order to get a correct
representation of your tax situation. That would be the job of the
"interview" subsystem of the tax software, which is a different
story. By the way, I tried to download a copy of the source code for
gnuTaxes, which is a dormant and unfinished free tax software project
started in year 2000. That project as an example talked about the
interview logic versus the form logic, if you will. But personally I
would be happy to be able to hack up some calculations only, never
mind the interview stuff.
(more below).

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Dec 31, 10:52*am, Mark Bole <ma...[at]pacbell.net> wrote:
- quote -

HR block probably has these interesting things covered in their own
propretary worksheets. For example is it best to take tuition and
fees deduction, hope credit or lifetime learning credit for a given
return?
What if two eligible students exist on the same return? Three?

I do agree the softwares like turbo tax do not appear to optimize
these things... and there is room in any software for improvement.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"Mark Bole" <makbo[at]pacbell.net> wrote
- quote -





Also there are 40-some states and hundreds of more city tax returns that may
not have even yet approved the forms and data generated by the software
vendors. For someone to trust the program "as-is" from a box of software
they buy at the corner gas station is crazy.




--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Watkinsville, Georgia

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

reikred[at]gmail.com wrote:
- quote -

Care to share? It's hard for me to believe that there are any features
that could be *profitably* provided to the mass market that haven't
already been.

-Mark Bole

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

AES wrote:

- quote -

No, all the software makers I know of continue to send out updates
throughout the entire e-filing period (Oct 15th). It's quite possible
you could file and have accepted a return before the filing deadline,
and then need to file an amendment due to an error that the software
maker fixes after that time (if the IRS software doesn't catch it first).

The Internet has made possible a "just in time" delivery method that
allows vendors of all types of products to release to market for
competitive purposes before a product is truly ready, and then they just
compel you to download updates before you use (and, not coincidentally,
agree to licensing restrictions, liability limitations, etc). For
example, I just purchased a universal remote control device for
audio-visual equipment, and the first step out of the box resulted in a
firmware update from the vendor's site.

-Mark Bole

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"Arthur Kamlet" <kamlet[at]panix.com> wrote
- quote -




Naaaa. They're just redesigning the packaging. After all, what's new,
better, or different about money?





--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Watkinsville, Georgia

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"AES" wrote:

- quote -

When Congress gets around to it.

Back when the Earth was cooling and I was involved in the process the drop
dead OK to print date was mid-September. (That was before e-file, and the
IRS printing order was the world's largest.) Depending on the mood of
Congress, sometimes it was met and sometimes not.

In planning meetings IRS computer people will say they need a minimum of 18
months to find the "on" switch, but in the end they get things done with the
time they're given. There's actually pretty good informal communication
with Congress when there are legislative delays (and between IRS and the
software vendors), so they can have patches ready and waiting for the
legislation. However, there's still some time needed to install and test
the patches, so sometimes specific forms will be delayed for e-filing.
There have also been occasions when changes were made too late to be
reflected on paper forms, in which case workarounds were found and
published.
--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

In article <siegman-CF88EA.18442630122008[at]news.stanford.edu> ,
AES <siegman[at]stanford.edu> wrote:
- quote -


Well, last year the Stimulus Rebate was still fuzzy-ish in January
or even later. And I hear talk of a newer and better and different
rebate package right now.
--


ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

In article <8f89b10d-4e2d-445a-a5a8-f09459a5664a[at]l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> ,
<reikred[at]gmail.com> wrote:
- quote -

As Harlan said, the 1040 series of returns were supposed to be XML
compatible a while ago. Helen O, who has served on the IRS
committee for e-filing issues, reviews the status at least once a
year and the latest review was "not this year."


But for those with faith, when XML is ready for 1040s, even a 1040X will
be e-filable.


(XML is an extended markup language, a next generation .pdf)
--


ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

In article
<c68a0aae-c461-4a4c-aac3-43aaeb33d682[at]s9g2000prm.googlegroups.com> ,
reikred[at]gmail.com wrote:

- quote -

And when is the deadline for the IRS to publish the final, final, final
rules for year 200X, so the tax software makers can implement, and
check, and double-check their software? (Is it, for example, 31 Dec
200xX?)

[Side question which I know is silly: If people are to be able to make
informed financial decisions during 200X, shouldn't the tax rules for
200X be frozen on 1 Jan 200X? (except maybe for an xx % surcharge to
handle emergency situations)]

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

reikred[at]gmail.com wrote:
- quote -

project has been postponed for another year.
Oh drat!

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

- quote -

work with IRS tax form instructions only; well maybe with a passing
reference to a publication upon occasion. I say this after
participating in efiling since 1989 and having many times in the past
had to override certain line entries to make things come out right.

ChEAr$,
Harlan

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

<reikred[at]gmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

That would make it easier, wouldn't it?

Every data field is defined to death somewhere, but I seriously doubt that
IRS publishes it, and nobody's going to give your their code that
manipulates and analyzes the data.

AFAIK e-file is the only non-governmental system that directly interacts
with the IRS processing system, and you've already been given information
about those record specifications, which include just about everything that
would be on a tax return. I have no idea what "interesting things" you want
to pursue, but what data elements are missing from the e-file record?

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >