Phil Marti wrote:
- quote -

You can request (from IRS) transcripts of the balance due
account periods a couple of months after statute expiration.
They should show systemically generated TC 608s to clear
the balances due and zero out the accounts.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"caj111"wrote:

- quote -

AFAIK nothing will be issued, it just goes away. There's nothing to abate,
so nothing to request be abated.

The notice of lien "self-releases" on the date noted on the original filing
without IRS issuing any futher paperwork. As mentioned before, do check
credit reports about 6 months later to make sure it's being shown as
released.
--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Sep 14, 8:40*pm, Paultry <afn0255...[at]afn.org> wrote:
- quote -


Thanks again for all of your help here. This is all so foreign to
me. Their 1993 and 1994 returns were filed, although they may not
have had the correct information on them when they filed them. My
question is, as far as "waiting it out" goes, will there be any sort
of confirmation, any sort of notice received after they are no longer
obligated to pay the tax, or should I file a Request for Abatement
after December?

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Brew1 wrote:
- quote -

Of course they're still on the hook for not filing.
However I can't see any possibility of an OIC, given the facts we have.

ChEAr$,
Harlan

--
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Brew1 wrote:

- quote -

The tax liability was based on a return filed by the
taxpayer or on a substitute for return (SFR) prepared by the
IRS. An IRS SFR assessment IS sufficient to begin the 10
year collection statute. If this is an SFR, the Service has
no need to pursue a filed return.

You are correct that an OIC can't be processed unless all
required returns have been filed. In this case, though, the
consensus of opinion is that, since the collection statute
is about to expire, the OP should not submit an OIC, but
should simply let the statute run to expiration in December.
What better compromise of the liability (from the
taxpayer's point of view) than to have it wiped out for no
additional consideration?

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Sep 14, 11:27*am, Harlan Lunsford <hlunsf...[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

For an OIC, the taxpayer must file the returns for the year(s) in
question. The IRS
assessment is not sufficient.

My question is, if there is no statute of limitation for not filing a
return, couldn't they
still be on the hook for not filing?

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Brew1 wrote:
- quote -

and apparently no question as to liability. And even if you wanted to
amend those so to speak, what expense records would he have that far back?

Phil's advice is on point. with that income IRS probably has the case
"on hold", i.e. CNC, esp since last "action" except the taking of
refunds, was notice of tax lien back in 2004. Hunch here is that tax
was assessed around 1998 or so, which is about the time frame when IRS
would have "noticed" it and made the SFR's, so just wait it out.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Sep 12, 11:18*am, "Phil Marti" <prm20...[at]verizon.net> wrote:
- quote -

First thing to do is file the tax returns; I believe that will start
the statute of limitation running, and anyway it is required to
file an OIC.

Once the returns are filed, I would help them fill out an OIC and pick
one of the payment options besides the 20% down. They
will pay for the OIC form and send in the first month's payment with
the OIC. Keep in mind they will have to continue
to send in the monthly payment even though they won't hear from the
IRS for 9-12 months. So print up a
year's worth of payment vouchers for them.

What they owe is essentially irrelevant in this case, the IRS will
want whatever they're able to pay.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Sep 12, 8:11*pm, "Phil Marti" <prm20...[at]verizon.net> wrote:
- quote -

has been notices that their federal refunds in subsequent years were
being intercepted. The last important notice they received from the
IRS was in 2004, when they received a Notice to File Federal Lien.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"caj111" wrote:

- quote -

I knew there was something I was forgetting to ask. Why is this debt an
issue at this time? Ordinarily an account this close to statute expiration
would be sitting in inactive status waiting to disappear. Has there been an
inquiry from the IRS, or is the taxpayer the only one worried?

In short, unless IRS has initiated contact, leave it alone.

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

- quote -

So at this point, does it make sense to just "wait it out" and hope a
levy doesn't happen in the meantime, since there are only three months
to go? Should I prepare the 433-A then send it in to IRS Collections
or will that draw attention to it?

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

caj111 wrote:
- quote -

A routine Notice of Federal Tax Lien (NFTL) doesn't identify
specific property, nor is it required to. It attaches all
property and rights to property of the taxpayer, owned or
after acquired. That said, it attaches personalty anywhere,
but realty only against third parties with actual or
constructive knowledge of the lien (usually perfected by
recording in the jurisdiction where the real property is
located.)

However, on the lien I
- quote -

Unless extended by voluntary waiver, OIC, litigation,
taxpayer out of the country, etc, the collection statute
expires 10 years from date of assessment, after which the
lien is no longer enforceable.
- quote -

The original NFTL filing stays forever in the public records
where it was recorded, and available to all who care to view
it. The NFTL document contains wording that, absent
refiling, the lien is self-releasing after the 10 year
statute. How long the credit bureau maintains the
information, and how creditors treat it, is up to them and
their rules.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"caj111" wrote:

- quote -

No property is specified on the notice because the Federal tax lien attaches
to all the taxpayer's property, including after-acquired.

- quote -

Yup, that's how it works, assuming there hasn't been some intervening
action, such as a bankruptcy or offer in compromise, to extend it.

- quote -

Yes, it will remain on their credit reports for some time after it's
released. They should get their credit reports about 6 months after the
collection period expires to make sure that the credit reports have been
updated to show that the lien is no longer active. Reporting agencies are
much better at picking up liens than they are satisfactions.

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

- quote -

Okay, thanks so far for everyone's assistance.

I have some more information.

Whether or not the husband will be going back to work I don't know but
it doesn't look like it for the foreseeable future.

I just obtained a copy of the federal tax lien which was filed in
August 2004. There was no property specified in the lien, however, I
assume because there was nothing to lien. However, on the lien I
noticed the "Date of Assessment" as December 1998.
Does that mean in December 2008, that's it?
The lien gets released and taxes can't be collected anymore?

Also, a Levy on Wages, Salary and Other Income was filed in August
2004 but it has since been released, I don't know when.

Also, does this stay on their credit report if the taxes are never
paid, even after the ten-year statute has run? Even though 10 years is
a long time, being completely relieved of liability for the taxes
seems too good to be true.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

<removeps-groups[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

Collection is the pertinent one here.

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

On Sep 12, 8:18 am, "Phil Marti" <prm20...[at]verizon.net> wrote:

- quote -

What statute? The statute of audit or assess additional tax, or the
statute to collect tax?

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Phil Marti wrote:
- quote -

What Phil Marti said. And,

Prepare a Form 433-A Collection Information Statement and
apply the financial standards shown here:

http://www.irs.gov/individuals/artic...=96543,00.html

Some expenses are allowed without question, others are
actual with maximums as shown in the standards.

Ensure taxpayers are in full compliance with filing
requirements and have sufficient withholding or estimated
payments to offset current year taxes.

Anticipate the filing of a Notice of Federal Tax Lien if not
already done.

If allowable expenses exceed income, they have no assets of
value, and no prospects for future financial improvement,
plead their financial hardship situation to the Service.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

"caj111" wrote:

- quote -

What are his long-term propsects? Are we talking about an eventual return
to work or disability?

- quote -

The statute is 10 years from assessment, which was probably late because of
unfiled returns. When will the statutes expire?

- quote -

On the surface, pending answers to the inserted questions, it looks to me
more like a hardship currently not collectible. (Can't pay from existing
assets or make payments from current income.)

I'd stay away from an Offer since that would extend the statute, and
expiration of the statute is their best friend at this point.

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >

Okay,

I am a tax attorney and accountant who normally doesn't deal with
individual tax issues so forgive my ignorance about installment
agreements and offers in compromise. This is just a charity case for
me that I'm doing for free as a favor to friends. Here are all the
relevant facts I think:

Married couple in their late 50s earning (and probably spending) just
over $31,000 annually. I really don't think they save much money
because they live in the suburb of a rather expensive metropolitan
area. Only one spouse works, the other is suffering from a back
injury and can't work. He gets unemployment payments which will run
out soon.

Some years ago husband worked as an independent contractor and wrongly
assumed that he didn't have file or pay taxes. These unpaid taxes
date back to 1993 and 1994. Penalties and interest have ballooned the
total amount over the years to more than $25,000. Even though it's
been more than 10 years, SOL has not expired.

They have no assets to speak of except a car and a truck. The truck
probably could fetch $1000 at best; they don't drive it at all, it
sits in a driveway getting rusty. The car has more owed on it than
its blue book value.

Bottom line here... do the numbers suggest they should try for an
installment plan or an offer in compromise?

I don't see they'd have much to lose by filing for an offer in
comprimise, because their monthly income level is low enough such that
they would be exempt from the $150 filing fee and 20% downpayment. Am
I wrong?

I suppose it is possible that with a little more belt-tightening they
might be able to scrounge up a monthly payment on the installment plan
but I don't see any installment plan paying off this balance in five
years or less. The IRS could see them as having many more years of
earning power but I'm not certain they'd ever be able to make a dent
in this tax debt the way penalties and interest accrue.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >