Alan <sfcnm-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

Me too! The raffle was yesterday. I didn't win.

Dick

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Seth wrote:
- quote -


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In article <SCd2k.1022$L_.172[at]flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com> ,
Alan <sfcnm-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

The FMV is what a *willing seller* would sell it to a *willing buyer*
for. I don't see "new car dealer" anywhere in that definition.

- quote -

Why are "new car dealers" magic?

Seth

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In article <Xxd2k.3807$ZE5.2516[at]nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com> ,
Alan <sfcnm-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

Who is qualified to appraise it? Only one (used) car of that model
has ever been sold, and the price was $150,000. Therefore, that's the
FMV for said car.

- quote -

Why isn't that still constructive receipt? You had the right to
receive it, therefore income.

- quote -

Even though it's clearly worth $2,000?

Seth

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Seth wrote:
- quote -

automobile dealers, the FMV of that new car is what any new car
dealer would be willing to sell it at to a willing buyer. There
is nothing magic about it. New car dealers define the market. Go
and find the best price you can from a new car dealer.

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Seth wrote:
- quote -

need an appraisal.

- quote -

I don't think it matters whether you want the stuff or don't want
the stuff when it comes to how much income you have from winning
a prize if you accept it! If you don't want it, disclaim it. No
income. If you want it... $2700.
- quote -

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In article <4CU1k.7684$Ri.2720[at]flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com> ,
Alan <sfcnm-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

Define "dealer" and tell me what makes them magic.

If I'm willing to sell something for $2,000, and do so, why is that
less definitive than a "dealer" who claims he won't sell for less than
$2,500, but doesn't actually have a sale at that price?

FMV is defined in terms of "willing buyer" and "willing seller".
"Dealer" is not part of the definition.

For that matter, why isn't FMV the price a dealer would normally pay
to a willing seller in an arm's length transaction?

Seth

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In article <3aH1k.6400$mh5.2890[at]nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com> ,
Alan <sfcnm-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

There's a very specialty car made. Two of them sell for $500,000
each. The manufacturer made a couple more, but they aren't selling.
He donates one to a charity raffle. You win it. You go to a dealer
and ask about the value; nobody will sell one for less than $500,000.
Since you don't want to drive such an expensive car (and can't afford
to), you sell it. The best price you can get is $150,000.

Are you sure your tax bill exceeds your proceeds?

- quote -

What if you don't want beer stuff? You negotiate with a bunch of
other people to sell the certificate, and the best price you can get
is $2,000. How is that not the FMV of the certificate, being the
price a willing seller and willing buyer agreed to?

Seth

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Dick Adams wrote:
- quote -

accept from a willing buyer in an arms length transaction.

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Alan <sfcnm-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

The prices offered by a merchant are subject to negotiation.
Discounts are taxable to the extent that they decrease the
price of the goods below fair market value.

The winner of a hole-in-one competition wins a car valued
at $35,000 MSRP. He does not want the car. So he sells it
to the dealer for $30,000. Is his taxable income $30,000
or $35,000?

Dick

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Seth wrote:
- quote -

You win a car from some show. They tell you it's worth $30K
(MSRP). You immediately go to two dealers and negotiate a price
for that model with those features. As that is what the seller
and buyer are willing to agree on... that is the FMV for income.
It is not what you can sell it at on E-Bay or what you can sell
it at back to the dealer or in a classified ad.

Now you win a $2700 certificate. You negotiate what ever price
you can with the retail establishment for whatever Beer stuff you
want. Say it come to $4000. You hand over the $2700 certificate
and pay the remaining $1300. You have $2700 as the FMV. You
negotiated an arms length price with the dealer.

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In article <V8E1k.6367$mh5.716[at]nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com> ,
Alan <sfcnm-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

We don't know that. I've seen plenty of discount ads with fine print
about "there might never have been any actual sales at the Suggested
Retail Price we're giving you a discount from."

- quote -

Valued at that by whom?

- quote -

An immediate sale to an unrelated party is clearly at FMV, involving
both a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither of whom was under
any constraint.

Seth

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On Jun 4, 2:32*pm, se...[at]panix.com (Seth) wrote:
- quote -

My mistake. I was distracted by the phony discount scenario in a sub-
thread.


- quote -

That we know about.

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Seth wrote:
- quote -

to win $2700 of merchandise at a retail establishment. The prices
offered by the merchant were the FMV that a willing buyer would
pay for the merchandise. Therefore, at the time of winning, the
buyer had a certificate valued at $2700. Any subsequent sale
would not be relevant IMHO.

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In article <9414f59d-8480-4829-a6f1-68394065f27c[at]2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com> ,
Bill Brown <brownwp[at]longwood.edu> wrote:
- quote -

In this case, he would have won a $2700-face certificate for a $20
raffle ticket, a gain of $2680.

Then he sold the certificate on eBay for $3,000; assume $100 in fees to
eBay, that's a profit of $200 (his basis being FMV on which he was
taxed).

The eBay _buyer_ has no tax consequences.

Seth

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In article <MYU0k.6294$Ri.2263[at]flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com> ,
Alan <sfcnm-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

So why wouldn't the original gift certificate also, albeit to a much
lesser degree?

Seth

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On Jun 2, 12:20*pm, se...[at]panix.com (Seth) wrote In that case, though, I could see $2680 as the taxable income for
- quote -

You are mistaken. There is no current income for "winning" the
privilege of purchasing something at it's current fair market value.

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In article <bb471c83-f5d8-4537-9170-0dc9e7fe0629[at]v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com> ,
removeps-groups[at]yahoo.com <removeps-groups[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

Yes; I thought of that later. The tax might not be the same (e.g. if
the taxpayer is carrying forward a large capital loss).

Seth

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In article <g1pkg7$pj8$1[at]reader2.panix.com> ,
Dick Adams <rdadams[at]panix.com> wrote:
- quote -

The issue is the amount of tax due, not how much (or whether) you
object to it.

In that case, though, I could see $2680 as the taxable income for
winning the certificate, and $300 (less fees) as short-term capital
gain.

Seth

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Seth wrote:
- quote -


--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts > << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy > << are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. > << ------------------------------------------------------- >