"Seth" <sethb[at]panix.com> wrote
- quote -


You can bet your sweet bippies the IRS will know more than you then.

There exists a Market Segment Specialization Program Audit Technique Guide
for musicians, which spells out in detail for the auditor what the practices
are in the industry at various levels and for various types of people in the
music business (artists, managers, producers, promoters, lables, etc and so
on).




- quote -


Are you just not aware of load-in and sound check? If it's absolutely
necessary for you to see what it looks like and hear what it sounds like,
then contact the manager of the venue and get in the door early. Talk
business, get the tour, listen and look, take notes.



- quote -



I just don't see it at all. If you have a pending show there, or you are
even considering a show there, the venue managemenet would be letting you in
for free - if you're on the up and up. I just don't see the necessity to
atttend a show to obtain what can be had for the cost of a phone call, or an
e-mail which is even less these days. Then again, there's always load in
and sound check.

The incentive for the venue to help you is their reputation for quality
shows, especially on nights that draw the big numbers. The club/bar venues
generally makes the bulk of their profits for the night on beverage sales.
So they are going to work with you to make sure you have the biggest draw
your band can pull, this regardless of what night it is. That's why booking
is a two way street. You might be dying to play there, but they don't want
you.....or they may be dying to have you play there, but you don't want to.

There are trade publications that let the venues know what your draw was at
past shows, as well as the financial payout arrangements. The venues
publish what their house sound and lighting systems are as well as their
back-line (if any).


The venue management knows the area.
They know what types of people attend their venue.
They know what avenue your music needs to market through.
They are the professionals in their market.
They have all the contacts.
And they'll direct you to people and places within your budget.


If your band only does covers, trick lighting and a finely tuned sound
system in a state of the art acoustical venue can't change the fact that no
one wants to hear it.



Athens is a music town. I have clients up and down the music business
chain, from solo performers, bands, managers, booking agents, writers,
promoters, and record lables, to club/venues and music festivals, even a
lutherie or two. I don't know anyone, from the local unknown indie band to
the folks who won a Grammy not all that long ago, that does what you feel
like should be an allowed deduction as an ordinary and necessary business
expense.

But I can tell you it's been tried before, and shot down in a hail of audit
bullets.





--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia

--
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In article <i7PNj.9151$DY1.6160[at]bignews5.bellsouth.net> ,
Paul Thomas, CPA <paulthomascpapc[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

I don't know the actual practices. I can see lots of times when it's
cheaper to attend a show (e.g. I want to see how fancy they can get
with the existing lighting system; they'll charge me a lot to have
their lighting engineer come in specially to show me, or I can buy a
ticket to a show where they say they'll be doing lots of lighting
effects.)

- quote -

It's not clear they know the optimal ways to advertise (certainly they
have little incentive to save you money; they'd rather have you spend
another $1,000 to get $500 more tickets sold).

Seth

--
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<removeps-groups[at]yahoo.com> wrote
- quote -





Clearly going there during the day, meeting with the management and staff,
sound and lighting people, etc is common enough practice in the music and
entertainment industry. Attending a show there is not.

Look, the folks at the venue will want you to have a huge show, and will do
whatever to make it so. They'll direct you to the radio, press, etc to get
your word out to the public that frequent their venue.





--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia

--
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On Apr 15, 4:43 am, "Paul Thomas, CPA" <paulthomascp...[at]bellsouth.netwrote:

- quote -

Did they have proper documentation? Were there entertinament/scouting
expenses large relative to the rest of their expenses? If they had
proper documentation (which shoud includes receipts and preferrably a
log of their analysis) and scouting expenses were not large relative
to all expenses (5% might be a reasonable ratio), then it seems fair
enough.


- quote -

You still have to see the place in person to be sure. Sometimes you
could go to the place when there is no concert in place, probably for
free just to check out the size and so on. Documentation of this
would be good to have too.


- quote -

--
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In the end, everything is a matter of facts amd circumstances.
Last week while judging beer, I was accused of being the
"Russian Judge" meaning I scored lower than than the other
judges, However, in this case of the band manager, I seem
to br scoring highesr.

If this is a situation where the bands get booked 1 to 4
times in a year. Forget it. But if he is booking them
26 or more times, he has an established business and is,
in my rarely humble opinion, entitled to such deductions.

OTOH as he establishes his business, he will need to
create positive relationships with the venue operators
who should be getting him in for free!

When I taught Auditing at the University, I referred
to it as educating bastards,

Dick - I is an Auditor (CPA, CIA, CISA)

--
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"Ernie Klein" <ecklein[at]pacbell.net> wrote
- quote -





I've seen this nearly exact same scenario go south on someone.






Booking gets done over the phone and through e-mail these days. Same for
promoting.

The necessity of visiting a venue to evaluate the possibility that your band
might want to play there is dubious.





--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia

--
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In article <a9UMj.2743$h75.2453[at]newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> ,
Mark Bole <makbo[at]pacbell.net> wrote:


- quote -

Except the auditor won't have a smile on his face.

--
-Ernie-

--
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Seth wrote:
- quote -

[...]

- quote -


Is this thread what an IRS audit would be like?

-Mark Bole

--
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In article <BLKMj.35077$Er2.18296[at]bignews6.bellsouth.net> ,
Paul Thomas, CPA <paulthomascpapc[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

Good enough to evaluate the acoustics from the sidewalk outside?

- quote -

That means it has acoustics. There are established venues that book
hundreds of bands a year whose acoustics suck.

- quote -

Where can I find one of your miracle-working sound techs?

And even one who can needs the right equipment. Identifying the
precisely right equipment in advance saves money.

- quote -

It's not even Mozart. So what? Should a band not be able to have its
music sound the way _it_ wants because _you_ don't consider it
important enough?

- quote -

I believe he'll pay more to rent special equipment to improve the
acoustics if it's necessary, and he doesn't want to spend the money if
it isn't.

- quote -

But it's "after the fact" for the band playing this week, and before
the fact for my band two weeks from now.

- quote -

Why?

Seth

--
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In article <eQwMj.21490$Q52.16777[at]bignews9.bellsouth.net> ,
Paul Thomas <paulthomascpa[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

No beers on my expenses.

- quote -

If they'll talk to me; they won't on their way in, and they're too
drunk on their way out.

- quote -

That says what they did, not which parts of it *worked*.

- quote -

See above.

- quote -

See above.

- quote -

But it helped.

- quote -

If you think you know everything already without any market research,
I don't want to hire you for anything I care about that involves
selling to the public.

- quote -

They wouldn't sell me a discount ticket for half a set.

- quote -

In my professional opinion, it was worth the effort.

Seth

--
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Paul Thomas, CPA <paulthomascpapc[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:

- quote -

When I was a freshman in college (eons ago), I made
spare change by booking a band into nightclubs. It
takes a lot of leg work and personal meetings. But
mt only out-of-pocket cost was gas - no advertising.
We parted company when I realized they couldn't play
what the venue called for unless it was there standard
fare.

But you're really harsh lately. No wonder you never
made it as a gigolo! <g> My excuse is that I keep
extending credit.

Dick

--
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"Dick Adams" <rdadams[at]panix.com> wrote
- quote -


Good ear?

Seriously though, that's been proven out by the mere fact that it's an
established venue that books hundreds of bands a year into the joint.

A good sound tech can overcome any deficiencies in acoustics. Besides, this
ain't Motzart I suspect.

In addition, do you really believe that he'll not book his band into the
venue with the biggest draw in town on any given night because the other
band's sound system was inferior, or it was mixed badly, or it was mixed
perfectly, but the music just was bad?





- quote -


Depends on the venue.

Clubs here advertise strong. They want to play up who is coming to draw in
the students. There's no guarantee that a venue here will have a strong
billing. If they don't, it's a slow weekend for the club. Club venues here
usually don't pay the bands, who get door less production and security
costs.

Even the big venues in Atlanta market who is coming to town. Lakewood, the
Fox Theater, Gwinnette Center, Georgia Dome, etc.....they all market their
events and shows.

Granted, the bands do their own, and what they do depends on who they are.
REM only needs to make an announcement on their web site and it's talked
about all over by everyone for free. Struggling bands get to town early and
post fliers on street lamps all over town just hours before the show.

In between there are the folks who hire professional marketing (promoters)
who know the scene and get it done.






- quote -



You don't know the effectiveness of any advertising or marketing till after
the fact.

Then you get to ask the folks who attended your show how they heard about
your show.

How they heard about someone elses show is meaningless almost.






- quote -




Sure, but their goals are different.

I see the grasp of the OP to be akin to going to the Super Bowl when his kid
is in a local pee wee football program.






--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia

--
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Paul Thomas <paulthomascpa[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

How would he evaluate the acoustics of the venue?

- quote -

And you would expect them to share this valuable information
with a competitor?

- quote -

The venue usually gets a flat rate plus concessions. Your
manager markets, the venue does not.

- quote -

OK, you have one there. Now you know who will want your
advertising money, but you will not know there effectiveness.

- quote -

Again, how would he evaluate the acoustics of the venue?

- quote -

That is somewhat harsh. Consider that college and professional
scouts attend high school, college, semi=pro, and professional
games to evaluate players, field conditions, etc. And that is
100% deductible - except for the beer!

- quote -

As long as you are there, why leave before it is over?

- quote -

The beer is a distracter. How did it get into this thread?

- quote -

Who said he was traveling far and spending the night?
But if he does do that, it may or may not be reasonable.

- quote -

If the auditor questions it, the only way to win is to have
detailed documentation of what you did and what you did with
the results. Quality recordkeeping and a straight face are
your best defenses against an auditor.

Dick

--
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"Seth" <sethb[at]panix.com> wrote
- quote -



And you had to have how many beers to do that?

You could:
Stand outside and take a survey of patrons entering or exiting the
establishment.
Call and ask the band performing that night how ~they~ marketed their show.
Call and ask the venue what marketing ~they~ do to promote the show.
Find out what radio stations and entertainment publications cater to your
band's audience demographics in that area.

Some of that - hell - most of that can be done from your desk. And if you
absolutely had to go to that venue, you didn't have to go in to the show of
some other band to get what you needed to know.

If you don't know how to market/promote the bands you promote/manage, then
you should let the band know you don't know how to help them.

Do you really have to go see the other band perform their entire set to get
that information?
Do you have to have a dozen beers to get that data?
Did you have to travel that far and spend the night to glean some nuggets of
information that may or may not help promote your bands show?




If audited, it's a hard sell to the auditor.




--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia

--
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In article <zdcMj.35855$r76.11827[at]bignews8.bellsouth.net> ,
Paul Thomas <paulthomascpa[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

"I talked to some customers to learn how they found out about this
show, to decide where and how I should promote mine."

Seth

--
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"D. Stussy" <spam[at]bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote
- quote -



.........and I just thought the old folks breath smelled bad because they
were old.





--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia

--
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"Dick Adams" <rdadams[at]panix.com> wrote
- quote -




Dang.

I knew I majored in the wrong field.





--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia

--
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"Paul Thomas" <paulthomascpa[at]bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:%dcMj.35856$r76.8331[at]bignews8.bellsouth.net...
- quote -

Don't you remember the stories of older Americans in the 1980's eating pet
food because all they got was Social Security and couldn't afford real food?
It happened and may be happening again.

--
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Paul Thomas <paulthomascpa[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:

- quote -

For gigolos, yes.

Dick

--
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In article <MtaMj.20860$Q52.585[at]bignews9.bellsouth.net> ,
Harlan Lunsford <hnslunsford[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:

- quote -


--
-Ernie-

--
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