Mark Bole <makbo[at]pacbell.net> wrote:
- quote -

What if the deal cannot be decomposed? "If they both win, I
get $10,000. If one of them wins, I get $2,000. If neither
wins, I get $0."

Seth

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Seth wrote:

- quote -

If casino issues you a 1009-G, the expected outcomes are:

A B 1099-G
- - ------
Y Y $ 7000
Y N 3000
N Y (3000)
N N (7000)

Talk with an accountant at a casino and find how 1099-G
amounts are determined.

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Seth wrote:

- quote -

The $7,000 deposit you made, and the lack of same by the
casino, is irrelevant. You have broken out all the possible
outcomes of two separate bets in one statement, but doing so
does not merge them into a single bet.

Bets can be bundled -- you won't make any of them unless you
make all of all, or one bet is contingent on the outcome of
a prior bet -- but they are still separate bets. I argue
that every time it's your turn to put money in the poker
pot, you are making a new, separate bet with each individual
at the table. This would truly be a record-keeping
nightmare.

Now, people who actually play poker may not see it this way,
and as a practical matter, the tax people probably don't see
it this way. I assume they would be glad if anyone reported
any of their private poker winnings on any significant
scale.

[...]
- quote -

If your poker buddies issued you W2-G statements, I think
the IRS would be happy with that number.

-Mark Bole

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Geoff wrote:
- quote -


- quote -

No, taxwise it's the difference in Adjusted Gross Income
(AGI) that is at issue.

Putting gross winnings in AGI helps set certain other limits
in many places throughout the tax return. Even with equal
net incomes, the return with the higher AGI will most likely
end up paying more tax.

-Mark Bole

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- quote -

I actually saw a woman dealt two fives.

She slid the double down money to the card, and the dealer,
instead of verifying her bet, dealt her one card, maybe a 6.

With a straight face she indicated she wanted to hit that
5-6! As if she had intended to split all along!

The pit boss let her split, -- she lost, and I left the
table.

--
ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

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DF2 <replyvia[at]newsgroup_please.com> wrote:
- quote -

And you can give your casino card to the tables manager who
will record yourbetting history several times during your
table play.

While that will be usful for recording your gambling
history, it also will decide if the casino will offer to
comp you in the future.

BTW if you were at a table and pulled out a log book to
record your betting hstory, you would be, um, invited to put
it away or leave the table at once.

Blackjack tip of the day: If you find yourself at a table
where someone decides to split tens, leave immediately.

--
ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

Moderator:
Blackjack tip: It's ok to split 5's if the pit boss is
watching you closely and you want to convince her/him
that you are clueless.

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Geoff wrote:

- quote -

There are a lot of machine players who insert a card into
the machine when they play. The casino stores that history.
I suspect that info is potentially available to the player.

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- quote -

I would be willing to bet, except for a few professional
gamblers, that nobody actually does this. If they have a
record, it is probably something they dummied up afterwards.

What would the harm be in taking the net of winnings minus
losses? Taxwise it would come out the same (wouldn't it?)
and it wouldn't encourage/force people to lie on their tax
returns.

I don't gamble, so it is a moot point for me personally; I
just think that encouraging fraud is bad practice. If they
have to lie about this, it is a small step to lying about
otherthings. A gateway lie, if you will.

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Mark Bole <f9gv3c$7pf$1[at]panix3.panix.com> wrote:
- quote -

What if I make a deal with a casino, where I hand them
$7,000 and the terms are: "If A and B win, I get $14,000.
If A wins and B loses, I get $10,000. If B wins and A
loses, I get $4,000. If A and B both lose, I get $0."
Sure, that looks like a $5,000 bet on A and a $2,000 bet on
B, but it's really one more complicated bet.

- quote -

When I used to play, that would be slow. Most hands don't
take that long.

- quote -

Taxpayers don't take hundreds of individual business trips
one evening while they're half-drunk.

There's also precedent that if you walk into a casino, buy
$10,000 worth of chips, gamble for a while, and cash out
$30,000 worth of chips and leave, you have $20,000 gross
winnings (as the W2G form the casino gives you will assert),
not maybe $120,000 gross winnings and $100,000 gross losses.
So if you play poker for chips, why shouldn't the same
apply?

Seth

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John H. Fisher <f95b7t$ids$1[at]panix2.panix.com> wrote:

- quote -

I knew or know some professional bridge, backgammon, poker,
and chess players. Chess isn't usually considered gambling
(though the way some of them played . . .), the others
usually are. The people I knew tended to win fairly
consistently.

- quote -

Some are, some aren't. If somebody wins $50,000 to $150,000
every year for five years, I'd be inclined to consider his
gambling a business.

- quote -

Where do you put *expenses* on Schedule A?

- quote -

I think that someone who has consistently earned a profit
has a very reasonable expectation of continuing to do so.

- quote -

So something can be both. Someone can pursue a hobby for
pleasure, and also have the reasonable expectation of
earning a profit.

Seth

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Geoff wrote:

- quote -

"positively insane" ; tax law ; hmmmm..!

- quote -

What amazes me sometimes is to receive a brochure or get an
email announcement for tax courses, that education which we
have to take each year to keep our licenses you know, and
many of them are held where? Las Vegas! Even the state
association of EA's over in Mississippi hold their seminar
at known gambling dens of iniquity. dens of iniquities?

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

Moderator:
Casinos offer low room rates and low cost meals.

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- quote -

What TAX year are is the OP dealing in this situation?

TY2006 is not IN CYCLE for CP 2000 processing yet,
BUT special programs & EXAM might be looking at this!

TY2005 CP2000 season began this Spring/Summer.

TY2004 is winding down to a trickle with ASED approaching
4/15/2008

I would recommend contesting the proposal,
with a clear explanation of what is on line 21,
Copy of W2g would help, I hope the payer did not use a
1099-Misc, as that might have triggered a CP2000 situation

I think this might be an instance of a CODE& EDIT error,
the editor may have incorrectly placed special potential
skipped SE tax indicator on the return, possibly if the
notations on line 21 were -NOT- clear enough...
as mentioned by other responders.

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Seth wrote:

[...]
- quote -

Wasn't there a long discussion of this topic in the last
year or two on this forum, covering esoteric topics like
after-tax basis in lottery tickets and such?

- quote -

Yes. Placing a bet does not require any money to change
hands at all. You and I can shake hands on it if we trust
each other, or if I employ vicious henchman who will break
your kneecaps if you don't pay up.

However, often one or both bettors are required to put up a
deposit. Examples of the former include lottery, racetrack,
or casino betting, examples of the latter include poker pots
or office betting pools. This money is not a gambling loss
until such time as you actually lose the bet. If you win
the bet, the return of your deposit is neither a winning nor
a loss.

Example: I "buy" a lottery ticket for $1. If I lose, the
state keeps my $1 deposit to cover my side of the bet, and I
have a $1 gambling loss. If I win and the ticket pays $20,
the state returns my $1 deposit and I have a gross win of
$19. This is not a "net", otherwise you would have to
somehow posit that I both won $20 and lost $1 on the same
bet -- but you can't both win and lose the same bet.

- quote -

Gross winnings = $5,000, loss = $2,000. Each bet is a
single, separate transaction. You either win or lose (but
not both) each bet, regardless of whether you made an
advance deposit.

- quote -

I don't see why. Although 100 hands in the course of single
evening does not sound like a very relaxed game to me (at
five hours, this would be one complete hand every three
minutes without any breaks), I certainly could keep next to
me a sheet of paper with two columns: hand number, win/loss
amount. It shouldn't take me any longer to jot these two
numbers down than it does to take a sip of my beer.

Taxpayers are expected to keep track of hundreds of
individual business auto trips or meals, why should poker
hands be any different?

-Mark Bole

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"Harlan Lunsford" <hnslunsford[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

Okay, I looked it up and find you are correct.
But that is positively insane. I was just in Las Vegas and
didn't see a single person keeping the required log. Having
a law that no one observes just encourages contempt for all
laws.

Doesn't actually matter to me; I don't gamble, I was there
for a woodworking show.

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Geoff wrote:
- quote -

Ah, but gross winnings are entirely reportable and losings
only deductible on schedule a, assuming he's not in the
trade or business and thus net would be reported on the
schedule c.

When a gambling entry is made on line 21, it is ALWAYS
gross!

And if you don't believe it, I can tell you about some new
clients whose VITA preparers did just what you are
suggesting, i.e. line 21.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

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webmas...[at]onfirebikinis.com wrote:

- quote -

I live in England, Great Britain and I am a professional
gambler I usually make a profit every year of between in US$
70,000 to $100,000 a year, over here winnings from gambling
are not classed as earned income and are therefore exempt
from Income Tax, also as I have several health problems I
collect disability income of around $12,000 a year. When I
first started my professional gambling career my social
security benefits were a lot more and in fact legally
speaking as my rent, property tax, Disability and additional
income related benefits amounted to around $24,000 a year I
could legally have still been entitled to this providing my
savings were less than about $24,000 and for a while I did
claim and collect this until I started to invest in
Apartments and Houses which bought my assets to over the
$24,000 limit for income realted benefits.

I dont have any moral problem with claiming social
security/welfare benefits as I still pay high tax on the
alcohol and tobacco I purchase along with sales tax on other
goods I purchase.

It looks like you have a raw deal in the USA compared with
some other countries.

John Wilson

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"Herb Smith" <smithff33[at]aol.com> wrote:
- quote -

So every bet you win is profit on line 21. Every bet you
lose is an itemized deduction?

You have to be mistaken; the paperwork would be literally
impossible.

Moderator:
Isn't "paperwork overload" part of the tax system? <g
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<f9dicm$qin$1[at]panix3.panix.com> , Geoff <Geoff[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

Is it the amount he won minus the total amount he bet, or
the amount he won minus the amount he bet on the winning
bets?

If he places a bet of $5,000 and wins, he gets $10,000 back.
Gross winnings is $5,000 on that bet.

Suppose, in addition, he placed a bet of $2,000 and lost.
Are his gross winnings $3,000 or $5,000? Suppose both bets
were somehow placed in one transaction?

At the extreme, "gross winnings" can't be calculated.
Consider a poker player who wins 100 hands over the course
of an evening. He knows how much he started with and how
much he ended with, but it's practically impossible to keep
track of winnings and losses on each hand.

If he's allowed to count cash out - cash in as winnings, why
can't someone who opens an account at a sports book do the
same?

Seth

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webmas...[at]onfirebikinis.com wrote:
- quote -

I think you are still missing the point. What is supposed to
be entered on Line 21 is the gross amount of WINNINGS, not
the net of your wins and losses. Losses can only be claimed
as an itemized deduction on Schedule A (if used).

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"Herb Smith" <smithff33[at]aol.com> wrote:
- quote -

"Gross Winnings" are the amount he won less the amount he
bet; which is what he did. He didn't subtract any expenses;
losing bets are not expenses, they are losses.

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