I don't see your upside on this.

---
f

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld[at]nospam.org> wrote:
- quote -

In California it's common and routine not to use an
attorney. Title companies do all the work attorneys once
did. It's generally easier to make a claim against a title
company on title insurance than it is to sue a lawyer for
malpractice.

Stu

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

'Barry Margolin <barmar[at]alum.mit.eduwrote:

- quote -

I was surprised to find out that there are areas where
people routinely go through home purchases without an
attorney.

I've sold several homes without involving an attorney
directly, although I did check with one regarding my
obligations to the seller. And I would certainly ensure the
check was good before passing papers.

--ron

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

Dick Adams wrote:

- quote -

Fake cashiers checks, fake certified checks, fake postal
money orders and even fake wire transfers (that can be
recalled on account of fraud) are stock in trade of Nigerian
419 fraudsters. And even checks on lawyers trust accounts
(IOLA, in NYS for example) can have payment stopped without
recourse to the payee if the underlying funds prove
uncollectible.

If you have "dirty hands" you may be out of court before you
start. Google <"Jaime Adler" Nigeria> .

If the above (and the advice of others) don't convince you
think of this: there is a longtime scam in Spain where
people are induced to buy (not sell) homes with the contract
showing a fraction of the real price and the rest on the
side, to save on capital gains tax. (In Spain and other
civil-law countries buyers and sellers are often not
independently represented or counseled by lawyers, a single
notario handling the transaction in the name of the State.)
The results: (1) the buyer will be stuck for an exaggerated
tax on sale and (2) the municipality can claim the property
under right of eminent domain at the low-ball contract
price. I'm sure there are comparable unpleasant and costly
surprises to the seller in your scenario.

"[i]f your lawyer tells you it's OK to underdeclare the
price, get him to give you that in writing on his
letterhead, signed and dated - and then change lawyers."

http://www.taxationweb.co.uk/taxlaw/article.php?id=12

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

? Is there anyone who
- quote -

it is not common practice here in Calif to involve an
attorney in the purchase or sale of a house.

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

"Barry Margolin" <barmar[at]alum.mit.edu> wrote:

- quote -

Three times for me.

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

Barry Margolin <barmar[at]alum.mit.edu> wrote:

- quote -

Yes. It varies by state; in some states, it's uncommon to
use a lawyer.

And the buyer could be screwing himself, too: if the title
proves bad, the title company is only insuring $100,000, not
the full $300,000.

I wonder what would happen if he asked the buyer to hold the
closing in the bank's offices.

Seth

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

"Phil Marti" <prm20871[at]verizon.net> wrote:
- quote -

I can't believe he's even asking here. Is there anyone who
goes through a home sale without hiring a lawyer? Even if
you're not doing anything funny, I thought this was just
standard practice. And if you ARE suspicious, shouldn't he
be the one you ask for advice, rather than a bunch of
anonymous people on the Internet?

--
Barry Margolin, barmar[at]alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

JT wrote:

- quote -

I am not a lawyer, but this sure sounds like fraud to me! I
would run, not walk in the other direction, if he insisted
on doing what he asks.

Missy Doyle

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

"JT" <jt486200[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

I don't have an answer to your question since I'm not a tax
pro, but it seems that the real issue isn't how or for what
price you are selling your property, but the fact that you
are going to participate in a misrepresentation of the sale
price to another party.

--
Vic Roberts
Replace xxx with vdr in e-mail address.

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

JT wrote:

- quote -

You're being invited to participate in a conspiracy to evade
property taxes. I would be quite surprised if that were not
illegal under state law.

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

Run, don't walk, away from this guy.

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

JT wrote:

- quote -

Take it from someone who does criminal tax defense work.
Run, don't walk as quickly away from this guy as you can.
You are discussing entering into a criminal conspiracy. The
explicit intent here is to evade property tax and you are a
willing and knowing particpant. In addition, if you are
going to close under RESPA using a HUD-1(commonly used even
in the absence of a mortgage issue), you will be required to
fully disclose the terms of the transaction. A false
statement on the HUD-1 is a felony under 18 USC 1001 et.
seq. I am curious to know how you can rationalize even
considering participating in an attempt to defraud the
government.

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

"JT" <jt486200[at]hotmail.com> wrote

- quote -

Cash seems to be quite beneficial.

- quote -

You probably won't find an attorney who will let that one
slide through.

- quote -

Then have the contract state the sales price is $300,000.

- quote -

The contract price. The other settlement documents (HUD-1)
and your deposit to the bank.

- quote -

You don't want to be in a position of having violated any
laws by falsifying real estate transaction papers. Talk to
an attorney about all this, and maybe send the potential
buyer packing.

--
Paul Thomas, CPA
paulthomascpapc[at]bellsouth.net

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

"JT" <jt486200[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

I assume this means he's willing to pay you more than you
think the property is worth. Make sure it's enough more so
you can pay for some legal advice. (See below.)

- quote -

I don't see the IRS as a problem. The one with the
potential IRS problem is the buyer, who can prove with
closing documents only $100,000 in purchase price.

- quote -

That's why God invented lawyers. Have one review everything
you will sign to make sure you're not contributing to a
fraud.

While you're talking with a lawyer, you might want to ask
how you protect yourself against the thief who wants to buy
your property. People seem to think that those who will try
to cheat the government won't try to cheat them. Beats me
why.

Under the scenario you present there's nothing to prevent
him from going to the closing table and getting title to
your property for $100,000, followed by a "what $200,000?"

--
Phil Marti
Clarksburg, MD

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

"JT" <jt486200[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

You should read the book "Alias Big Cherry". It's the bio
of a con artist. It's hilariously funny because of the
nitwits he used to assist him. The "fake" cashiers check
comes up in the book.

So when the $200,000 fake turns out to be a fake, what will
your recourse be. Take into consideration that he sells the
house the next day for $200,000 to a 3rd party. Couple that
with you being involved in a conspiracy to commit property
tax fraud!

Tell this goniff to find a different mark.

Dick

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >

I am selling my house ( sale price $300k, mortgage balance
$100k) and the purchaser wants to pay cash for the whole
thing with very beneficial terms to me. Here's the catch
though, he wants to go to closing and with 2 cashiers/bank
checks:

100k to pay off my mortgage and 200k for the remainder

He wants to represent to the title company that the sale
price is only $100k (FYI, I purchased 5 years ago for $150k)
and give me the other check "on the side". He thinks this
will help keep the property value low when he is reassessed
for property taxes, however, I have spoken to the county
property appraiser and they said they would just consider it
an "unqualified" sale (not consider the purchase price when
assessing) and they would assess him based on nearby sales,
etc. They also said a below market sale price is not that
uncommon actually (family-family sales, other forms of
compensation, etc.

My biggest concern for me though, is proving to the IRS that
the $200k is proceeds from sale of a house so it is not
considered income. I understand that a 1099-s isn't
required anymore if we issue a "Certification for no
reporting", however, I assume there is some way (?) they
may find out about me depositing a $200k check (I will use
it to purchase another property within a month) and that
could trigger an audit or I could be audited at random. If
so, what does the IRS consider as adequate proof of selling
price? Does it have to be a closing statement from a title
agent or is a signed purchase agreement or other agreement
between the buyer and seller sufficient. I imagine there
are lots of transactions every day that are informal cash
sales like this (sometimes with no title company) and don't
have official closing statements etc.

Anyway, on one hand I feel like this is a free country and I
should be able to sell my property however I want but on the
other hand big brother is always watching and I don't want
to put myself at risk.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

<< ================================================== ===== > << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, > << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties > << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. > << > << If you want a professional tax opinion, you are advised > << to contact a Certified Public Accountant, an Enrolled > << Agent, or a Tax Attorney. > << > << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org. > << Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. > << ================================================== ===== >