dash wrote:
- quote -

No, that is the 30 day letter. NEXT step is the 90 day
letter. Stay tuned.

- quote -

that's right, and before that they will send the 90 day
letter.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

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"dash" wrote:

- quote -

More evidence for me that this Tax Advocate structure is not
what it should be. TAS or not, it would have taken minutes
for the agent to ask for a copy of your report and then look
at the account screen. There may be an attitude now that
it's somebody else's problem now, a fancy function under
Treasury who think you mess everything up.

- quote -

Perhaps, perhaps. I read where TAS shops now have a
"Revenue Agent Advisor," to minimize the referrals of TAS
cases to exam. This requires an agent voluntarily jump ship
laterally to a dead-end position. Tending to attract
dissatisfied and/or ineffective employees. But they get to
advise case advocates who are clueless in exam matters.
These advisors probably start wearing "power suspenders."
So, it's possible an Advisor has looked at the case and
couldn't see that it's messed up, if it is.

Fred F.

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"dash" wrote:

- quote -

Supervisors don't do that. Those who know how to do, do it;
those who don't know how, teach it. Or supervise.
Seriously, the examiner merely revises the report and
discusses it with the t/p; he/she knows not to say that
management directed it. Changes by _anybody_ to which you
have not agreed to by signature (unless reduced tax) must go
through the appeals invite and then statutory notice
process.

A possibility here is that by disallowing deductions on the
original 1040, the interplay of tax return line items makes
the refund effect less than on your 1040X. You should check
for that.

Fred F.

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"dash" wrote:

- quote -

A 1040X claim on unpaid tax has no legal standing, and it's
called a claim for abatement. If it looks OK, they should
allow it obviously. Or send it to Exam. If you go to
Appeals, they don't care if it's paid or not. Except in a
case where they sense you have no money to pay in full, and
thus can't litigate as a refund suit, I suppose that could
affect your bargaining position for a settlement under the
hazards of litigation. Not supposed to do that, but they're
human.

Fred F.

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Robert Daniels wrote:
- quote -

If this strategy were appropriate--and, as I mentioned in
another message, I don't know that it is--but assuming it
were, what would be the purpose in paying the tax first
before filing the 1040X?

The 1040X does not require that the tax be paid to be filed,
does it? I thought it could be filed at any time up to 3
years after the return was due, or 2 years after the tax was
paid. My 2001 return was due on Aug 15, 2002 as I made a
timely request for extension of the original return due
date, and still have the confirmation number on file. So I
would have until Aug 15, 2005 to file 1040X if I were to go
that route--so I have a little more time, right?

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Robert Daniels wrote:
- quote -

The difficulty with this approach is that the audit was
actually an audit of a previously filed 1040X for the 2001
tax year.

The sequence of events was this: I filed Form 1040X
claiming certain additional deductions for 2001 and a
refund. The IRS sent my Form 1040X to examinations, and ALL
of my deductions for 2001 (both from the original 1040 and
the 1040X) were examined. The result was that all of the
new deductions claimed ended up being allowed, but some of
the deductions from the original return were disallowed.
The IRS said (in writing) we are allowing the 1040X and
applying the credit (from the 1040X) to your account, but
want you to agree to the following additional taxes (from
the disallowed deductions from the original return).

The difficulty is that the credit from the 1040X never
showed up on the actual bill--only the additional taxes.
Because of the fact that the new, allowed deductions from
the 1040X were greater than the deductions disallowed from
the original return, I should have been due a refund at that
point. But because the credit from the 1040X never showed
up, the IRS says I owe them money.

The problem, at this point, is that if I were to file a
1040X now, it would be my second 1040X for the 2001 tax
year. What would I use as the starting numbers for that new
1040X? The numbers from the original return, or from the
previous 1040X? The difficulty here is that the credit from
the previous 1040X, which the IRS agreed in writing to
allow, never showed up on my bill.

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Harlan Lunsford wrote:
- quote -

The IRS sent me a "Final Notice of Intent to Levy and Notice
of Your Right to a Hearing". Is that the 90-day letter that
you are referring to? The letter indicated that I had 30
days to request a hearing, not 90 days, but I did exercise
my right to request a hearing within 30 days. The IRS has
acknowledged my request was made in a timely fashion. The
hearing is coming up in August.

The purpose of the hearing, as far as I am concerned, is to
contest the actual indebtedness claimed to be owed. I
contend I have the right to do so under IRC 6330(c)(2)(B),
since this will be my first opportunity to contest this
alleged indebtedness. The alleged indebtedness arose AFTER
the audit was concluded and therefore I never had the chance
to raise this issue during the audit.

The IRS is contending that the hearing is merely to discuss
collection procedures, and whether collection can be averted
through a payment plan--not the actual alleged indebtedness.

The IRS has also indicated that should this matter not be
resolved at the IRS level in the Collection Due Process
hearing, I still have the right to appeal to tax court.

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Robert Daniels wrote:
- quote -

Yes, I did contact the agent who conducted the audit, but
unfortunately not until after I contacted the Taxpayer
Advocate Service. The agent claims that they are now
powerless to act because the matter is now in the hands of
the Taxpayer Advocate Service. The Taxpayer Advocate
Service, for its part, isn't doing anything to aggressively
get this matter resolved.

The bottom line is that I don't feel I've helped myself by
contacting the Taxpayer Advocate Service; I feel I've just
added another layer of complicated bureaucracy.

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Harlan Lunsford wrote:
- quote -

But if it were to be reviewed by the supervisor, and the
supervisor does elect to make changes, shouldn't there have
been some clear letter from the supervisor explaining how
the supervisor is changing the auditor's findings, and that
in fact the supervisor has reviewed it and is making
changes?

There was never any such letter. There was simply a bill
with a tax amount that does not reflect what was agreed to
in the audit. Because of the fact that the tax amount in
the bill is approximately (not exactly) what it would have
been had all deductions been denied, I am *guessing* that
the IRS somehow chose on their own to deny all deductions.

But that is merely speculation on my part. Never was there
any letter from a supervisor saying, look, we've reviewed
the auditor's findings, we've chosen to deny all the
deductions after all, and here is the computation of the new
tax as a result.

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dash wrote:

- quote -

Well, at some point, IRS sent you what's called a ninety day
letter, and outlined all your appeal rights at that time,
including how to proceed if you wanted to go to tax court.

Is your ninety days up by now?

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

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"dash" <dash[at]juno.com> wrote:

- quote -

That attitude was supposed to go away in creating the
Taxpayer Advocate Service. It sounds as though you never
rec'd an explanation of the +/- transactions in the account,
and they didn't give that obvious one a try. Has anyone
walked you through it?

You can obtain an account transcript by filing Form 4506-T,
which I think comes with a stuffer explaining the common
transaction codes.

Or call the people involved in your upcoming conference and
ask for a transcript. Then go to:

http://www.cleland-insurance.com/imfcodes.html

From above site, it's only the transaction codes (TC's)
which make money adjustment to the account that you're
interested in. TC 300 is the exam assessment; others
usually are only interest and failure-to-pay penalty, and
payments of course.

Fred F.

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I do not think the statute of limitations would have expired
for filing a 1040X as I filed for an extension with the
original return (have the confirmation number) so would have
until August 15, 2005 to file a 1040X. But it is unclear
what purpose a 1040X would serve in this case. The
Examination Report is correct; it is the bill that I
received after the Examination Report that is bogus. That
bill, however, doesn't have the kind of detailed numbers on
it that could be used as the basis for providing numbers
that could then be amended on the 1040X. It appears, as I
said, to be approximately in the ballpark of what it would
have been had ALL examined deductions been disallowed, but
there is not nearly enough detail on the bill as to how that
number was computed to be able to amend it with a 1040X. I
could use the figures on the Examination Report but, as I
said, that document is correct--it is the mismatch between
the Examination Report (very detailed) and the bill (very
simple but wrong) that is an issue here.

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The letter was signed by the "Operations Manager,
Examination". Yes, I signed my agreement to the Examination
Report that they prepared. I have already been in touch
with the Taxpayer Advocate Service but to no result. I have
a Collections Due Process hearing coming up in August;
however, they have already stated that they have NO
willingness to discuss the actual alleged indebteness (only
the collections procedures) as they say I have already had a
review of the amount due. The thing is, there has never been
any real response to any of my letters asking the bill to be
reviewed, so I don't feel that I have had a bona fide review
of my bill.

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I have already been in touch with the Taxpayer Advocate but
with little result to date.

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dash wrote:

- quote -

You might want to contact the Taxpayer Advocate
(877) 777-4778

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I received a reply to this by email but unfortunately my
reply in turn bounced...so I am posting the reply and
my reply to the group, with the person's name deleted to
protect their privacy:

....

Thanks but ...

I contacted the Taxpayer Advocate in April 2005 (3 months
ago) and it has still not been resolved. I also have a
Collection Due Process hearing coming up next month, but I
have already been informed that they are going to refuse to
discuss the alleged indebtedness at the hearing--they claim
that I have already had an opportunity to contest the bill,
but the fact of the matter is that I have not received a
response to any of my efforts to contest the bill, so I have
really NOT had a bona fide opportunity to contest it in 16
months.

-- An anonymous misc.taxes.moderated reader wrote:
"dash" <dash[at]juno.com> wrote:

- quote -

Contact the IRS Taxpayer Advocate and ask them to look into
the matter for you. I recommend you download IRS Form 911,
complete it, and fax it to your local Taxpayer Advocate
office. State your problem the same way you posted it to
this newsgroup.

http://www.irs.gov/advocate

Form 911
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f911.pdf

Taxpayer Advocate Offices (list of state offices starts on page 5)
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1546.pdf

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"dash" <dash[at]juno.com> wrote:

- quote -

1) Have you called the agent who conducted the audit? That
agent's group manager? The person named on the "under
investigation" letter? The Taxpayer Advocate Service at the
IRS? (toll-free telephone number: 1-877-777-4778)

2) A more technical approach (w/ professional help): If you
have the money, pay the tax, interest and penalties and
immediately file Form 1040X showing the agreed on audit
amounts and claiming a refund for the overpaid tax. Maybe
add Form 843 to claim a refund/abatement of penalties and
interest paid. Refund claims put time pressure on the IRS
because they can turn into lawsuits for refunds after six
months.

Bob Daniels ("And remember, free advice ain't legal advice.")

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"dash" <dash[at]juno.com> wrote:

- quote -

Contact the IRS Taxpayer Advocate and ask them to look into
the matter for you. I recommend you download IRS Form 911,
complete it, and fax it to your local Taxpayer Advocate
office. State your problem the same way you posted it to
this newsgroup.

http://www.irs.gov/advocate

Form 911
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f911.pdf

Taxpayer Advocate Offices (list of state offices starts on page 5)
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1546.pdf

Frederick Lorca

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dash wrote:

- quote -

First of all I'm reminded that when one plays against the
house, it's the dealer (IRS) who holds all the aces. And
don't get me wrong, I am NOT apologizing or justifying this
position, it's just the law.

Now to the case. At the conclusion of an audit, even when
you've signed your name, the auditor (is supposed to)
inform(s) you that her examination is subject to review by
supervisor. Indeed, all the printed notices they give you
prior to audit probably has this caveat embedded somewhere
therein.

However, if you can't get the matter resolved, call up the
Taxpayer Advocate's office in your region and ask them to
open a case for you.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

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Call the Taxpayer Advocate at 877-777-4778.

For more information about the Taxpayer Advocate Service,
see IRS Publication 1546, "The Taxpayer Advocate Service of
the IRS - How to Get Help With Unresolved Tax Problems,"
which you can download from the following link.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1546.pdf

Bob Sandler

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