IRS holding my refund demanding form 6251 AMT (I efiled 1040)

#25 06-01-2005, 10:23 AM

Linda, what you're saying is that in all your other
experience your clients never filed a 8801, OR the IRs
didn't allow the AMT credit because you didn't file the 8801
or didn't file the 6251 required of the 8801 and you did't
realize the credit was denied, OR the "examiner" let it go
because he didn't understand the problem.

It's pretty clear that the 6251 must be filed if there is an
8801. Logically, if the 6251 is "non-zero" it must be filed
if there are "dependent credits" (such as AMT or FNS, etc),
otherwise how is the AMT tax or the AMT credit, to be
determined?

ed

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#24 06-01-2005, 10:04 AM

- quote -

> > I know of no professionals who do NOT print Form 6251. At
> > least until you posted...

> In the 8 other practices that I have done work for, I have
> nvever seen the 6251 printed unless there was AMT owed. Must
> be an East Coast thing. It sounds like a good idea though.
> I'm going to change the settings in my Lacerte to force the
> form.

Maybe it is a Mass. thing. Most local professionals in my
area don't print the 6251 unless it is required.

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#23 06-01-2005, 09:44 AM

David Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU wrote:

- quote -

> I know of no professionals who do NOT print Form 6251. At
> least until you posted...

So count me among the "great unwashed", for if the form is
not needed, it is not printed. And I've yet to hear IRS ask
for one which is not needed.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford

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#22 06-01-2005, 09:44 AM

"Don Priebe" <priebe[at]iname.com> wrote:

- quote -

> > I know of no professionals who do NOT print Form 6251. At
> > least until you posted...

> I guess I do not understand that comment ...
> The t/p in question had a low income (so low that even her
> SS was not taxable), so the preparer knew that the AMT form
> was not needed. Despite his knowledge, he was using
> software, so the form was calculated. And whether he printed
> it out or not is of no consequence, since the return was
> e-filed.

I thought the comment was quite clear. I know of no
professional who does not force a printing of 6251. I don't
see anything unclear about that. I don't see where a
taxpayer's low income is relevant to that as there could be
a ton of AMT related items that would still be affected.

--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com

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#21 05-31-2005, 06:48 AM

- quote -

> I know of no professionals who do NOT print Form 6251. At
> least until you posted...

In the 8 other practices that I have done work for, I have
nvever seen the 6251 printed unless there was AMT owed. Must
be an East Coast thing. It sounds like a good idea though.
I'm going to change the settings in my Lacerte to force the
form.

Linda Dorfmont E.A., CFP, CSA

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#20 05-31-2005, 06:10 AM

- quote -

> I know of no professionals who do NOT print Form 6251. At
> least until you posted...

I guess I do not understand that comment ...

The t/p in question had a low income (so low that even her
SS was not taxable), so the preparer knew that the AMT form
was not needed. Despite his knowledge, he was using
software, so the form was calculated. And whether he printed
it out or not is of no consequence, since the return was
e-filed.

--
Don EA in Upstate NY

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#19 05-27-2005, 04:30 AM

"DORFMONT[at]aol.com" <DORFMONT[at]aol.com> wrote:

- quote -

> The IRS seems to be on an AMT kick these days. I filed a
> 1045 for a fraud victim carrying back NOL from 2003 to 2000
> and forward. The IRS employee who first got the 1045
> requested the AMT forms for 2000, 2002 and "maybe 2001".
> None of the forms were required to file the returns but I
> forced them out, all showing no AMT of course. The next
> rejection we got requested the AMT for 2003. We sent this
> forced form too. In all cases the taxable income was so low
> as to preclude even a suspicion of AMT. Even the lady's SSA
> wasn't taxable. I guess the IRS employee just got out of AMT
> school. I've seen this fixation on what they have just
> learned in training before. I hope they learn to trust the
> software in deciding whether an AMT form is necessary. We
> do. Maybe they will require the form on all returns even if
> there is no AMT.

I know of no professionals who do NOT print Form 6251. At
least until you posted...

--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com

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#18 05-19-2005, 10:34 AM

The IRS seems to be on an AMT kick these days. I filed a
1045 for a fraud victim carrying back NOL from 2003 to 2000
and forward. The IRS employee who first got the 1045
requested the AMT forms for 2000, 2002 and "maybe 2001".
None of the forms were required to file the returns but I
forced them out, all showing no AMT of course. The next
rejection we got requested the AMT for 2003. We sent this
forced form too. In all cases the taxable income was so low
as to preclude even a suspicion of AMT. Even the lady's SSA
wasn't taxable. I guess the IRS employee just got out of AMT
school. I've seen this fixation on what they have just
learned in training before. I hope they learn to trust the
software in deciding whether an AMT form is necessary. We
do. Maybe they will require the form on all returns even if
there is no AMT.

Linda Dorfmont E.A., CFP, CSA

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#17 05-18-2005, 03:39 AM

Phoebe Roberts, EA wrote:
- quote -

> MTW wrote:

> > This certainly sounds like a "system" problem with either
> > the software that prepared the return/efile or the IRS. My
> > ~guess~ would be that the software DID generate the 6251, it
> > simply didn't include it in the efile.

> That's my guess, too.
> To the OP: I'd leave a detailed message on whatever
> answering system your preparer uses. I suspect that there's
> a method of handling time-sensitive issues that come up
> while that person is on vacation, if it's a more-than-20-day
> vacation.

Not necessarily so. After all, my "answering system" is
only activated when I hear it ring, pick it up, and say
"Good morning!"

There's nothing so dire that one can't simply stall IRS with
saying his tax guy is taking a few days off and will be back
within 30 days. they understand.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n lA

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#16 05-18-2005, 03:39 AM

Frederick Jorden wrote:
- quote -

> Harlan Lunsford wrote:

> > But/..... But!
> > > We don't discuss software here, do we?

> What about professional software? Taxwise, etc.

Touche!

For I DO like to brag about my excellent selection in really
professional software which has a WYSIWYG interface. Plus
all the diagnostics which have saved my bacon a time or two.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n lA

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#15 05-17-2005, 09:17 PM

THREAD CLOSED AS OF NOW!

"Susan Sifton" <shiftonica[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

> Whacky Blacky wrote:

> > What should I do about the form 6251 demand from the IRS?

> Both last year and this year I received a similar demand
> letter from the IRS for my Alternative Minimum Tax form 6251
> even though I filed electronically.
> Since everyone who pays state taxes has to fill out the 6251
> AMT but only the very rich have to actually send it in to
> the IRS, I'll conclude you must be very wealthy because AMT
> does not apply to 95% of us workers.

Of course you have something to back up your outrageous
numbers.

- quote -

> Reading this newsgroup, I see lots of recommendations to
> simply ignore the letter from the IRS.

All from people with no knowledge of tax returns.

- quote -

> That's what I did last year and that's what I intend on
> doing this year. Nothing happens if you ignore this letter
> (I owed them money though and they owe you so they might
> hold it against you but they couldn't hold it against me.)

Dick, I think somebody from that OTHER newsgroup got one by
you.

--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com

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#14 05-17-2005, 08:39 PM

MTW wrote:

- quote -

> This certainly sounds like a "system" problem with either
> the software that prepared the return/efile or the IRS. My
> ~guess~ would be that the software DID generate the 6251, it
> simply didn't include it in the efile.

That's my guess, too.

To the OP: I'd leave a detailed message on whatever
answering system your preparer uses. I suspect that there's
a method of handling time-sensitive issues that come up
while that person is on vacation, if it's a more-than-20-day
vacation.

Phoebe

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#13 05-17-2005, 08:20 PM

Harlan Lunsford wrote:

- quote -

> We don't discuss software here, do we?

In my opinion we shouldn't if the question is essentially
"how to" or relates to technical support that can best (or
only) be provided by the developer. In other words, THIS
group should not become the dumping ground for the support
inadequacies of certain (nameless) software companies.

At what point would a discussion of systematic efiling
problems cross that line?

MTW

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#12 05-17-2005, 08:20 PM

Harlan Lunsford wrote:
- quote -

> MTW wrote:
> > Thomas Healy wrote:

> > > If there was an 8801 there should also have been a 6251 (to
> > > show how much AMT credit you could use). I have no idea why
> > > the 6251 didn't make it in the e-file.

> > This certainly sounds like a "system" problem with either
> > the software that prepared the return/efile or the IRS. My
> > ~guess~ would be that the software DID generate the 6251, it
> > simply didn't include it in the efile. And, apparently, the
> > efile was nevertheless "accepted" by the IRS ???
> > > Most likely the preparer will simply need to print the 6251
> > and send it off to the feds.
> > > Also, it would be interesting to find out what software was
> > used. <grin
> But/..... But!
> We don't discuss software here, do we?

What about professional software? Taxwise, etc.

--
Frederick E. Jorden http://Tax-Accounting-Payroll.com
7825 Midlothian Tpk - 207 Richmond, VA 23235-5247
EMAIL knowtax[at]bigfoot.com
(804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211

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#11 05-16-2005, 05:26 AM

MTW wrote:
- quote -

> Thomas Healy wrote:

> > If there was an 8801 there should also have been a 6251 (to
> > show how much AMT credit you could use). I have no idea why
> > the 6251 didn't make it in the e-file.

> This certainly sounds like a "system" problem with either
> the software that prepared the return/efile or the IRS. My
> ~guess~ would be that the software DID generate the 6251, it
> simply didn't include it in the efile. And, apparently, the
> efile was nevertheless "accepted" by the IRS ???
> Most likely the preparer will simply need to print the 6251
> and send it off to the feds.
> Also, it would be interesting to find out what software was
> used. <grin
But/..... But!

We don't discuss software here, do we?

ChEAr$,
Harlan

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#10 05-15-2005, 11:28 PM

Thomas Healy wrote:

- quote -

> If there was an 8801 there should also have been a 6251 (to
> show how much AMT credit you could use). I have no idea why
> the 6251 didn't make it in the e-file.

This certainly sounds like a "system" problem with either
the software that prepared the return/efile or the IRS. My
~guess~ would be that the software DID generate the 6251, it
simply didn't include it in the efile. And, apparently, the
efile was nevertheless "accepted" by the IRS ???

Most likely the preparer will simply need to print the 6251
and send it off to the feds.

Also, it would be interesting to find out what software was
used. <grin
MTW

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#9 05-13-2005, 07:15 AM

I would call or write the IRS and ask them to put the issue
on hold until your accountant gets back, then just turn the
issue over to him. If he's already done a 6251, then he can
just send it in without any additional cost to you. If he
didn't do one, but should have, then it should be gratis to
you since he messed up.

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#8 05-13-2005, 07:15 AM

I would call or write the IRS and ask them to put the issue
on hold until your accountant gets back, then just turn the
issue over to him. If he's already done a 6251, then he can
just send it in without any additional cost to you. If he
didn't do one, but should have, then it should be gratis to
you since he messed up.

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#7 05-13-2005, 07:15 AM

Whacky Blacky wrote:

- quote -

> What should I do about the form 6251 demand from the IRS I
> received today?
> They are holding up my refund until I submit form 6251 even
> though the accountant electronically filed my taxes this
> year.
> My accountant charged me dearly ($800) to do my taxes and
> now he's on vacation until nearly the end of May so I ask
> for your expert advice. I don't blame him, but, it seems I'm
> on my own until he returns.
> Today, May 5, 2005, I received a demand letter from the IRS
> with only 20 days to send them a completed form 6251 (AMT)
> for my personal income taxes. I just went through the packet
> the accountant printed. For 800 bucks, I did get a rather
> pretty assemblage of paperwork

... but there is no form
> 6251. (There was a 1040, schedule A (deductions), B
> (interest), D (-$3000 stock loss carryover), and E (rental
> real estate losses), 8283 (charity), 4562 (rental real
> estate depreciation), 8801 (AMT credit), and 8582 (passive
> activity loss limitations), but no 6251).

How was the credit on form 8801 computed without a form 6251
being completed first? That's the problem. If you have an
8801, you don't owe AMT, but remember that the credit is
limited to the difference between AMT's and the regular tax
system's results.

- quote -

> I'm particularly worried about the AMT tax because during
> the stock boom I ended up paying in taxes more than my
> income (I had to sell everything I owned and borrow from
> relatives just to pay my taxes). I learned the hard way that
> taxes are way too complex for TurboTax (due to the
> absolutely horrendous AMT situation when you buy but don't
> sell ISOs). In fact, I still hold the nearly worthless stock
> but I've already paid way more in taxes than they are
> currently worth.
> That's why I now go to an accountant.
> Having said that, the accountant filed my taxes
> electronically listing line 44 of the federal 1040 (AMT
> owed) as zero (which makes sense as I don't have any
> extraordinary deductions or any stock transactions
> whatsoever this year & I only have one child. (I've sworn
> off stock for the rest of my life as I've lost more in just
> taxes than I've ever gained in stock!)
> My question:
> Why is the IRS demanding form 6251 when my AMT owed is zero
> and we filed electronically? If they needed form 6251, why
> didn't the accountant send it electronically in the first
> place?

He should have. (See above.)

- quote -

> I'm still confused about this AMT stuff (please advise me).

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#6 05-13-2005, 06:56 AM

"Whacky Blacky" <blackywhat[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

> What should I do about the form 6251 demand from the IRS I
> received today?
> They are holding up my refund until I submit form 6251 even
> though the accountant electronically filed my taxes this
> year.
> My accountant charged me dearly ($800) to do my taxes and
> now he's on vacation until nearly the end of May so I ask
> for your expert advice. I don't blame him, but, it seems I'm
> on my own until he returns.
> Today, May 5, 2005, I received a demand letter from the IRS
> with only 20 days to send them a completed form 6251 (AMT)
> for my personal income taxes. I just went through the packet
> the accountant printed. For 800 bucks, I did get a rather
> pretty assemblage of paperwork

... but there is no form
> 6251. (There was a 1040, schedule A (deductions), B
> (interest), D (-$3000 stock loss carryover), and E (rental
> real estate losses), 8283 (charity), 4562 (rental real
> estate depreciation), 8801 (AMT credit), and 8582 (passive
> activity loss limitations), but no 6251).
> I'm particularly worried about the AMT tax because during
> the stock boom I ended up paying in taxes more than my
> income (I had to sell everything I owned and borrow from
> relatives just to pay my taxes). I learned the hard way that
> taxes are way too complex for TurboTax (due to the
> absolutely horrendous AMT situation when you buy but don't
> sell ISOs). In fact, I still hold the nearly worthless stock
> but I've already paid way more in taxes than they are
> currently worth.
> That's why I now go to an accountant.
> Having said that, the accountant filed my taxes
> electronically listing line 44 of the federal 1040 (AMT
> owed) as zero (which makes sense as I don't have any
> extraordinary deductions or any stock transactions
> whatsoever this year & I only have one child. (I've sworn
> off stock for the rest of my life as I've lost more in just
> taxes than I've ever gained in stock!)
> My question:
> Why is the IRS demanding form 6251 when my AMT owed is zero
> and we filed electronically? If they needed form 6251, why
> didn't the accountant send it electronically in the first
> place?
> I'm still confused about this AMT stuff (please advise me).

If there was an 8801 there should also have been a 6251 (to
show how much AMT credit you could use). I have no idea why
the 6251 didn't make it in the e-file. You have two choices:
1. Do the 6251 yourself; 2. Wait for the accountant to come
back from vacation to do it for you. The refund will wait
until then :-(

--
Tom Healy, CPA
Boulder, CO
Web: http://www.tomhealycpa.com

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