- quote -

But off-market sales/purchases are problematical; if it
drops further and you overpay him, that overpayment is a
gift (and not part of your basis). If it rises and you
underpay the underpayment is a gift (and taxable capital
gain to him).

Seth

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Whether it is a wash sale, or "self dealing" , and how to
avoid either, is immaterial since it is (also) a Related
Party Transaction where the loss is totally denied as
outlined in Publication 550 on page 48. It is obvious that
it is intended that losses shall not be allowed if the
trader, thorugh any of a number of devious methods, keeps
his position in an equity and tries to also take a loss in
that equity. You may beat the wash sale rules in court
(maybe) but the intent of the rules are so obvious that you
will somehow lose.

There are so many ways around this that a discussion of
whether our legislators really meant it is redundant. Have
your brother-in-law repurchase the stock for you and then
buy it from him after a month or so. In-laws are not
related parties.

ed

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callmekilo wrote:

- quote -

Your IRA and you are separate (but related) taxpayers. A
wash sale must be with the SAME taxpayer.

As for whether this is a "self-dealing" transaction (as at
least one other reply mentioned), if both transactions went
to the market - i.e. no arrangement to sell to your IRA your
shares - then there is no self-dealing.

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Tom Healy, CPA wrote:
- quote -

So is your wife, and a corporation you control, and a trust
you are the trustee of, and your brother, and your son, but
you KNOW these are related partiies. How come you don't
know that your personal IRA is a related party? Don't
you select the stocks it buys, and aren't you the person
they cal the beneficiary, trustee or administrator? Name
someone else your IRA is "related" to, if not you.
Ed

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Rich Carreiro wrote:
- quote -

Well you go right ahead, Rick. If I were to win, I'd be
riding all the trains in all the world to the end of the
line and back again; cept for the Trans Siberian of course.

But I agree; IMWTK.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA
thu 24 Feb 2005

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Thomas Healy wrote:
- quote -

While I have great respect for my esteemed colleague from
HAH VAD!, Mr Kay Thomas, esquire, I must agree with Tom on
this matter.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA
thu 24 Feb 2005

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"Bill Brown" <wpbrown[at]longwood.edu> wrote:
- quote -

I just did a quick check, and was unable to find any court
case at all that dealt with this issue. I did not check
Revenue of Letter Rulings.

Stu

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"callmekilo" <callmekilo[at]earthlink.net> writes:

- quote -

Ah -- that one again :-)

You know, if I ever win a huge Powerball jackpot, I think
one of the things I'll do is start asking here what PLRs
people want and hitting the IRS with filings, just so we can
get something quasi-definitive on these points :-)

--
Rich Carreiro rlcarr[at]animato.arlington.ma.us

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callmekilo wrote:

- quote -

In my opinion, because you and your IRA are related parties,
you cannot.

Regards,
Bill

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"callmekilo" <callmekilo[at]earthlink.net> wrote:

- quote -

Yes. The IRA is a separate entity.

--
Tom Healy, CPA
Boulder, CO
Web: http://www.tomhealycpa.com

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callmekilo wrote:

- quote -

Whether you think this evades the wash sale rules or not you
have created what is called an indirect sale in a "related
party transaction" and the loss for that is NOT recoverable.

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callmekilo wrote:

- quote -

Good question. Kaye Thomas of http://www.fairmark.com
thinks that it would be included as a "sale to a related
party", and the loss would be non-deductible.

I've also heard it said that it's illegal self-dealing,
excluding that share from the IRA, and that it's OK. Until
we have a court decision, we can't be sure.

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"callmekilo" <callmekilo[at]earthlink.net> wrote:

- quote -

This question never seems to be resolved in this group.
Some say yes, some say no, and I don't think there's ever
been a concensus.

--
Barry Margolin, barmar[at]alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA

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If I sell shares in a taxable account to take a tax loss at
the end of the year, can I simply buy them in my IRA to
avoid a wash sale rule?

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