Hey Drew, thanks for the cites. They are very appreciated,
but certainly not expected in such great detail. ;-)

Jennifer DeBoer

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

Who said that I would give the client cites? I just won't
speak affirmatively w/o looking at the original text, that's
all. I thought I would get a collegial response from the
group. I didn't expect people to get snippy.

Jennifer DeBoer

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Herb Smith wrote:
- quote -

Thanks, I'll try to remember that for the next time.

Maren
(load paid off now ayway)

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"Jennifer D" <best_scrivener[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

You haven't been in the business long I see. If I went and
spoke Code and Regs to answer questions from my clients,
they would look at me funny. They want an answer, not a
citation.

- quote -

Read my post about the difference between lending a hand and
doing someone's work for them.

<snipped as it was irrelevant> ================================================== ==========
- quote -

I would also point out in addition to Dick's comment that
there is a huge difference between actual tax practice and
academic study. You use citations to support a conclusion
on an issue you're defending or supporting in actual
practice. You don't use them in common everyday office
behavior.

--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

snip

Hopefully we can end this thread with some cites.

Amortizing points is from IRC 461(g)(1).

The reason one cannot deduct other loan closing costs is
that deductions are a matter of legislative grace. BNA
provides the following case cites to this concept:

e.g., Gapikia v. Comr., T.C. Memo 2001-83. See also INDOPCO,
Inc. v. Comr., 503 U.S. 79 (1992); Interstate Transit Lines
v. Comr., 319 U.S. 590, 593 (1943); Deputy v. du Pont, 308
U.S. 488, 496 (1940); New Colonial Ice Co. v. Helvering, 292
U.S. 435 (1934); Exxon Mobil Corp. v. U.S., 244 F.3d 1341
(Fed. Cir. 2001); Centex Corp. v. U.S., 48 Fed. Cl. 625
(2001); Petty v. Comr. T.C. Memo 2001-59; Campbell v. Comr.,
T.C. Memo 2001-51; Gerstenberger v. Comr., T.C. Memo
2001-50; Burris v. Comr., T.C. Memo 2001-49; U.S. v. Powell,
2001-1 USTC ¶50,305 (D.Ariz. 2001); Leschke v. Comr., T.C.
Memo 2001-18; Haeder v. Comr., T.C. Memo 2001-7; Ashley v.
Comr., T.C. Memo 2000-376; Daya v. Comr., T.C. Memo
2000-360; In re CM Holdings, Inc., 301 F.3d 96, (2002)
Sutherland Lumber-Southwest Inc. v. Comr., 114 T.C. 197
(2000), acq. AOD CC-2002-02; Gomez v. Comr. T.C. Memo
1999-94; Stark v. Comr., T.C. Memo 1999-1; American Elec.
Power, Inc. v. U.S., 136 F. Supp.2d 762 (S.D. Ohio 2001).

As there is no place in IRC 161-199 (PART VI--Itemized
Deductions for Individuals and Corporations) nor in 211-224
(PART VII--Additional Itemized Deductions for Individuals)
allowing the deduction of refinancing costs as individual
itemized deductions, they aren't allowed. Also see IRC
63(d) which starts out:

"For purposes of this subtitle, the term 'itemized
deductions' means the deductions allowable under this
chapter other than--"

--
Drew Edmundson

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Herb Smith wrote:
- quote -

With bank mergers, how is the mortgage-payer supposed to
KNOW if it's the same lender? (In some cases, it's clear,
but....)

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Frederick Jorden wrote:
- quote -

It's been said that you gets what you pays for. Last
night we had free tickets to a concert by Itzhak Perlman and
arriving at the theatre I found it cost a dollar to park
one's car, so I was complaining, sort of half heartedly to
be sure, and wife reminded me what Frederick says above, not
to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Are there any tax advice web sites which charge a fee and
guarantee their cites? I've not seen any.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA
Sun 13 Feb 2005

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

David Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU wrote:
- quote -

I am the one who posted the original question asking for a
cite.

I agree that without a cite, a statement is just a mere
assertion. I also agree with the person who said that I
"hoped" for a cite, but didn't "expect a cite." I certainly
didn't expect someone to say that "I get paid to provide
this kind of information." If you can't say something nice,
don't say it at all. We are all always students.

If you are a good tax professional, you talk Code. You
don't talk about things in the abstract. I also agree with
the person who suggested the real meat is in the Regs.
Also, if you are a professional, I don't think you feel
threatened by sharing info. There will always be business
for you if you are good.

For your information, I just started a tax business. I have
a JD, but I am not an attorney, yet. One can't know every
area of the Code like its the back of one's hand, but one
can help others. WHY? Because they might help you some
other time. On the ABA Tax group, the members are
constantly talking Code, Rev Procs, Regs, and case law.
Why? Because they are all trying to help each other be the
best they can be. They want to do things right.

I will gain business by the relationships I build. I won't
lose business by helping someone on the Internet who might
live in CA while I live in Ohio.

Just in case there is someone seeking help who lives in N.E.
Ohio email me. I highly doubt that I will get business,
this way, though. I don't expect it. I expect a forum to
talk Code so that we can all be better professionals

Tax Cents LLC
Jennifer DeBoer
New Philadelphia, Ohio

================================================== ==========
Moderator:
There is a significant difference between MTM and the ABA
Tax group. MTM is a professional tax forum driven by
questions from taxpayers. This group was created as an
alternative to misc.taxes (aka The Funny Farm) which is
a haven for tax protesters.
================================================== ==========

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Maren Purves wrote:
- quote -

This latter point is only true, if you use a DIFFERENT
LENDER for the re-fi. If not, the remaining points from the
previous loan are added to the points from the re-fi, and
amortized over the length of the re-fi loan. I believe you
will find a discussion of this in Pub 936.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

I agree with Dave, if they don't like the answers received
on a FREE web site, the poster can get a REFUND on the way
out.

================================================== =========
Moderator:
We have a double your money back satisfaction guarantee.
To take advantage of it, just send a voided blank check
(must have your name, address and SSN on the face of the
check) and a xerox copy of three of your major cards to
our Nigerian office.
================================================== =========

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Harlan Lunsford wrote:
- quote -

I thought one was not to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Each respondent to this news group will, within the rules
dictated by our moderator, provide as extensive an answer as
he or she wishes. The extent of the response is
proportionate to the fee paid for the service.

--
Frederick E. Jorden http://Tax-Accounting-Payroll.com
7825 Midlothian Tpk - 207 Richmond, VA 23235-5247
EMAIL knowtax[at]bigfoot.com
(804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"Shyster1040" <Shyster1040[at]nospamhotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

Then YOU can be the shining example. YOU can post all the
citations you want. The rest of us will provide mere
educated off the cuff responses.

--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Shyster1040 wrote:

- quote -

Maybe a "complete" answer should, but during tax season
especially, few of us have the time to actually look
anything up just to provide a cite. Hence I shall continue
to give "just the facts, M'am.", i.e. a bare bones answer.

- quote -

Whew; Glad you didn't include us EA's in your comments.
(grin

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA
Thu 10 Feb 2005

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Shyster1040" <Shyster1040[at]nospamhotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

I disagree. I don't think a CPA or an EA is required to
provide a cite on a free newsgroup. For a "complete" answer
a cite may be required but even then I don't think it is
always necessary. e.g. Would you have us cite the Rev.
Proc. each time we give the mileage rate? But people asking
for free advice on a newsgroup aren't entitled to a
"complete" answer. They may want one, they may need one,
but they aren't entitled to anything. Nor do I think the
OP was expecting a cite, she was just hoping for one.

- quote -

I agree. But I would further say that even with a cite the
answer should not be considered correct. The cite is just a
starting point for the person to find/verify the answer
themselves.

- quote -

Sometimes things said in newsgroups are misinterpreted. I
prefer to read Dave's response as a good natured ribbing of
the OP. That said, if I had replied I would have probably
just ignored the request for a cite.

Perhaps you aren't aware of this but Dick Adams is the
Dictator/King of M.T.M and he makes the rules for this
"game." We play by his rules or we don't play at all.

--
Drew Edmundson

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"Shyster1040" <Shyster1040[at]nospamhotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

First, let me apologize to everyone for allowing that
sarcastic remark to be posted.

Second, as Drew graciously pointed out, I make the rules
here. And I do not recall making any of the rules you have
suggested.

Third, Chapter 26 of the United States Code Service is a
valid cite because if you don't have a copy of the IRC, a
more specific site is useless. If you do have a copy, you
can easily find the cite yourself.

Fourth, if you asked for a cite for when royalties are not
subject to self-employment income, I know it's in Langford
vs. Commissioner. Do I know the case numerology? Hell no.
Do I know whether it's a Tax Court case or an Appellate case?
Again hell no. Can I look it up? Of course I can. Will I?
IT DEPENDS <G
Finally, I don't like arguments.

Dick
---
Richard D. Adams, CPA, CIA, CISA, CDP, CCP, CSP
Professor of Accounting (Retired)
Moderator: misc.taxes.moderated

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

For what it's worth, a complete answer should involve some
sort of citation - since a lot of the real work comes out of
the regulations, a mere Code cite doesn't take all the fun
out of it.

Without a cite, the answer is neither more nor less than
someone's naked assertion (which is only slightly better
than a naked assessment).

With all due respect to the hard-working CPAs here, if you
don't want to play the game, don't show up - bad attitude
spoils it for the rest of us.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

David Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU wrote:

- quote -

Certainly agree with you there, however , probably best
not to even comment on the question.

I'm not here to drum up business (although I DID get two new
clients from here, although I never place any contact
information in my signature).

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA


<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Thanks to Rick ++, Arthur, & Maren for your helful comments.

Jennifer DeBoer

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

There's a difference between offering a helping hand and
doing someone's work for them.

--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

I think someone already gave him the cites. We all have pet
peeves and bad days. Maybe the nastiest thing to do is give
him the Section and let him decipher the answer.

Maybe 4-5 years ago I was at a party and someone asked me
about the Foreign Earned Income Credit. The dialogue went:
It's in Section 961.
Where's that?
In the Internal Revenue Code.
Where can I find it?
Try the internet or the public library.
Will they have it?
Absolutely. Excuse me I need to find my wife.

I later learned from another CPA that he was getting paid by
direct-deposit by a German company for post-sales equipment
support and thought that this was foreign earned income!

Moral: Tis better to ask a question than to get a cite!! <G
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