Martha Matthews, EA wrote:
- quote -

According to the instructions on the form, a resident alien
can use the W-9, but he'll have to get his own TIN first.
However this case involves nonresident aliens who are not
eligible to get an TIN, as far as I'm aware, except with a
W-7.

- quote -

I didn't say that a 1041 had to be submitted. What I said
was that the individuals couldn't get a TIN except with a
W-9, and they couldn't use that until they filed the first
tax return requiring the number.

The trust appears not to be eligible to get a number with
the SS-4 unless the grantor gives his TIN. But if he
doesn't have one, well, it seems we're out of luck. And I
couldn't fund the trust until I could get a number for the
trust. And the individuals wouldn't owe any tax (thus
allowing them to get numbers with the W-7) until we could
fund the trust.

- quote -

Again, that was not the question, and that is not the problem.

Stu

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"Arthur L. Rubin" <ronnirubin[at]sprintmail.com> wrote in
- quote -

SNIP

When an estate or a trust distributes to an alien bene
(including Canada) the benes need to file W-9 before
trust/estate can issue K-1. I had no problem getting the
numbers without submitting the 1041. A 1042 must be filed
sending the withheld tax to the feds and the "aliens" must
file a US tax. Some states also require withholding.

Martha Matthews, EA

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Stuart Bronstein wrote:

....
- quote -

Hmmm. Doesn't a 1099-B (dividends) count as a "tax form"
for the purpose of the third-party tax form reason on the
W-7?

....

- quote -

I haven't checked lately, but I don't think that a trust
with foreign beneficiaries can be a disregarded grantor
trust, so that you need to get a number for the trust with
an SS-4, anyway. The trust then would need tax ID numbers
for its filings, so the third-party tax form reason would
work for the W-7?

Just speculating. I don't have any non-resident alien
clients, myself.

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Stuart Bronstein wrote:

- quote -

I've never dealt with a situation like this, but under the
circumstances I would lean in favor of the SS-4 "route."

But, I have no idea whether there might be ~other~ issues
related to a domestic trust that benefits non-resident
aliens. ???

MTW

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Stuart Bronstein wrote:

- quote -

And of course, an SS-4 can't be used unless the grantor (a
non-resident alien) already has a tax ID number to be used
on the form. Which was not the case in this situation.

Seemed like a chicken-egg problem.

After several hours on the phone with different people at
the IRS (all of whom were very pleasant and helpful by the
way - a nice surprise), I noticed something on page 2 of the
SS-4.

While it wasn't in the SS-4 instructions, page 2 of the form
says that an SS-4 can be used if the applicant is "a
withholding agent for taxes on non-wage income paid to an
alien" and is required to file Form 1042. According to a
local EA I work with, this could qualify under that
designation. So I used the SS-4 on that basis.

Stu

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I have a problem that the tax preparers can, hopefully, help
me with. I'm in a bit of a rush, so if you could email me as
well as posting, I'd greatly appreciat it.

The situation is this: I'm handling the probate for a young
woman who recently died. Her parents are nonresident
aliens, and will inherit her property (real estate and
stocks) that are located in the US.

The parents wish to leave the property as is when they take
title. For convenience I had them create a revocable living
trust to hold title to that property for them.

The problem is this: They need a tax ID number, or perhaps
two. The stock broker wants it now, for example.

To apply for a number with a W-7, it's (generally) not
supposed to be filed unless a tax return is currently due,
and the return must accompany the W-7 or no ID number will
be issued.

However no return is currently due, but I'd like to get the
ID number now.

My options are to file the W-7 with the risk that they won't
issue the number (and take forever to tell me that) or to
get a number for the trust with an SS-4.

Thoughts?

Stu

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