Harlan Lunsford <hlunsford[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

I haven't napped but I have wanted to do so. This guy
napped over an hour. Slept right into the next seminar in
the same room. Woke up and realized he was in the wrong
place, although if he was going to nap, his hotel room was a
better location.

--
Drew Edmundson, CPA (NC)

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Harlan Lunsford <hlunsford[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

When I would see a student napping, I would call on that
student with a question and say I sorry if I woke you.

There is a story of a class being given by Milton Freedman
at the Univ. of Chicago. He saw a student napping so he
asked a question, walked over to the student's seat, and
said loudly "Mister Johnson, what is the answer?"

The student woke abruptly and replied "I apologize that
I didn't hear the question, but I am certain that the
answer is to increase the money supply." <G
Dick

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Drew Edmundson wrote:

(snipped)
- quote -

(Grin!) And who among us has NOT napped at sometime during a class?

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford
(just back from western NC a rafting and a'railing.

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- quote -

Or the guy who was reading "Devil's Claw" during the whole
seminar.

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Harlan Lunsford <hlunsford[at]bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

Unless each CPE class includes an exam in front of a proctor
or teacher that actively monitors for cheating, there will
always be those who fail to learn but get CPE credit anyway.

I was at a class last week where a guy had a nice long nap.
At least he didn't snore.

--
Drew Edmundson, CPA (NC)

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Harlan Lunsford wrote:

- quote -

In Arizona none of it would have to be in taxes. That said,
I can tell you that clearly the largest amount of CPE
offered to CPAs is tax related.

And, as well, nothing says the "tax related" CPE for an EA
has to be in the area the person is practicing in. Again,
it would be incredibly stupid for an EA to do that (take off
topic CPE)--but, then again, it would also be incredibly
stupid for a tax CPA or tax attorney to satisfy their
continuing education requirements with all nontax courses,
even if that were allowed.

--
Ed Zollars, CPA
Phoenix, Arizona

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Ed Zollars, CPA wrote:
- quote -

Och aye! (Scottish for darned right!)

And some organizations cater to those who no have the time
for formal training by letting them read their periodic
magazine cover to cover then take an enclosed test (multiple
choice) for maybe .... 2 CPE's. Only benefit to that is
the national organization who makes the money.

Actually I think that DP at IRS should not make it so easy,
but require a morely strictly administered CPE program.

Don't know about CPA's, only that this state requires annual
40 hours, but not sure about whether any of that HAS to be
in taxes.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford

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Harlan Lunsford wrote:

- quote -

Yes and no. You can get CPE and not necessarily learn much
of anything. While I think that's incredibly dumb (keeping
up is a requirement, so you might as well use the required
CPE time to help get that), there are clearly people that
seem to think the whole point is figuring out how to get CPE
with no effort whatsoever.

--
Ed Zollars, CPA
Phoenix, Arizona

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Harlan Lunsford wrote:

- quote -

The IRS, in the preamble to the Circular 230 regulations
recently issue, indicated that the word "licensed" was
acceptable for an enrolled agent. The key prohibition for
an EA is on the word "certified" unless it represents, per a
later preamble to the final modifications, a "genuine
attainment that clearly doesn't apply to tax practice, such
as 'certified financial planner.'"

--
Ed Zollars, CPA
Phoenix, Arizona

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Ed Zollars, CPA wrote:

(snipped ).....
- quote -

Ah yes but the requirement for 24 hours of CPE for EA's does
help satisfy our clients that we must be continually on the
ball.

In fact our NAEA requires 30 hours per year. I know, not
quite the 40 required of CPA's, but CPA's have so many other
fields to cover, i.e. audits, practice, etc. The bulk of
EA's CPE's fall in the tax category.

While I would not favor IRS requiring EA's to pass the exam
anew every three years, I do recommend to all EA's that
they download the SEE every year and take the test in the
privacy of their conference room. And then have a trusted
associate grade the test for them.

just rambling, I guess. I'll quit now.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford

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Dick Adams wrote:
- quote -

At the bottom of my stationery is the phrase "Licensed to
represent taxpayers before the Internal Revenue Service", a
phrase completely sanctioned BY the IRS. Without looking
since I'm not at office, the permission I think is contained
in circular 230 which governs practice.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford

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Helen P. OPlanick EA wrote:

- quote -

Probably theoretically possible, though it would certainly
put you in a real hole in the section of the exam that tax
falls into (they've renamed things now, so I've lost track
of what they call that section <grin> ). Also, in most
undergraduate accounting programs, a failure to pass the
college level tax course would prevent you from obtaining
the degree in accounting.

By the same theory, you can become an EA (via the IRS
experience route) and never have passed any exam on tax
matters.

Reality is that no certificate or license "proves" the skill
of the individual, nor does the fact that they may have had
the skills to pass the exam years ago tell you they've
maintained their skill level today.

--
Ed Zollars, CPA
Phoenix, Arizona

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Don Priebe wrote:

- quote -

Correct--the key issue is that both grant the holder the
right to practice before the IRS. CPAs and attorneys are
granted that right by federal law unless specifically
suspended from practice before the IRS by the IRS, while
those not holding those licenses are allowed to qualify
either via examination or the IRS experience route.

It's similar to Tax Court--attorneys can qualify to practice
there essentially by the fact they are recognized as an
attorney by a state. Other individuals have to pass an
examination to represent clients before the Tax Court.

--
Ed Zollars, CPA
Phoenix, Arizona

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- quote -

Since no license is required to prepare taxes for
compensation (except in California and Oregon?), I would
argue that neither the CPA nor the EA is a "Tax Preparation"
license. Maybe both are "Taxpayer Representation" licenses?

--
Don EA in Upstate NY

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- quote -

Last I heard (and it has been a few years) you can pass the
CPA and screw up each and every tax question.

Helen, EA in PA
50 miles, 3 days, 1 cause - Multiple Sclerosis Challenge Walk for the Cure
October 1 to October 3, 2004
Donate on-line at www.msandyou.org

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- quote -

What kinda cite do you want?

Helen, EA in PA
50 miles, 3 days, 1 cause - Multiple Sclerosis Challenge Walk for the Cure
October 1 to October 3, 2004
Donate on-line at www.msandyou.org

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Helen P. OPlanick EA wrote:

- quote -

Hmmm... I'd guess that Circular 230 and the accountancy laws
of the 50 states would disagree. <g
However, it would definitely be accurate to say that CPA is
not EXCLUSIVELY a tax license.

MTW

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- quote -

Ad and EA is not a tax license.

--
Frederick E. Jorden http://Tax-Accounting-Payroll.com
7825 Midlothian Tpk - 207 Richmond, VA 23235-5247
EMAIL knowtax[at]bigfoot.com
(804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211

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Helen wrote:
- quote -

That is the CPA or EA who specializes in the tax problem you
have.

- quote -

I'm on your side, Helen. How about a cite for EA is a
license.

Dick

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- quote -

With all due respect - what in makes you think a CPA is the
guy with the best expertise?

Those 3 letters do NOT make you an expert any more than my 2
letters do. It's the education (past and continuing) and
experience with a particular niche that define our
expertise. I've know CPAs and EAs and Attorneys who all
claimed to be experts and who, to the extent that they dealt
with clients with issues with which they were familiar,
were. I've also know the same CPAs, EA, and Attorneys who
were completely lost when it came to matters where they were
not familiar.

To use myself as a practical example, I've been in business
for more than 20 years. I seldom get less than 50 or 60
hours of CPE annually. I specialize in high end personal
returns and small, closely held businesses. Without a
question I consider myself to be an expert in that field.
And yet with the same breath I'll tell anyone who will
listen that I do NOT do pension returns, I don't work with
publicly traded companies, and I won't take on any more 990
work. This doesn't make me less of an expert. IMNHO it
makes me more of an expert because I am willing to set and
accept limitations on my practice. I truly believe the real
professional understands that to be a Jack of All Trades
Means to be a Master of NONE.

And for the record, I have 4 CPAs as CLIENTS. 3 of these
guys are heavy into cost accounting for large companies and
the other is involved with a non-profit. None of them know,
or want to know, the first thing about taxation - they don't
use it in their work as CPAs.

I do however agree with your next to the last sentence -
"Unless you are getting an outrageous fee estimate go the
"guy" with the best expertise."

I just don't think that this is automatically the CPA
anymore than it is the EA or the JD and I could not help but
take a bit of personal offense at such a statement coming
from a professional.

That's my 2 cents, I'm getting off my soapbox now!

Thanks,
Gene E. Utterback, EA

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