- quote -

I guess it depends on your definition of the word "rare."
Would that be 1% or what? Is that sort of like, it depends
on what "is" means?

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Jenny wrote:
- quote -

Just a minor point maybe, but this is not a moral question,
rather one of ethics.

chEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

Pardon me for being late here, but while these "situations"
are not the norm, they are far from being (rare) exceptions.
If you get my drift.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

I agree that I have been fortunate, however, I also maintain
that in the 400,000+ churches in the United States that the
above examples are the exception not the norm.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"rod" <rwilsonsr[at]foundation.uconn.edu> wrote
- quote -

I used to keep books for a church. Seeing what goes on
behind the scenes in church is sorta like seeing how
sausages are made.

I'd imagine whoever handles the business affairs could tell
you who owned what when. If the church initially paid for
the property, of course it would belong to the church. If
the church subsequently sold the property to the pastor,
well, there you have it . . . But since there are so many
"ifs" involved, we really don't know for sure . . .

-Tock

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

GenFinSvcs wrote:

- quote -

Clergy are fallible just as the rest of us mortals. Locally
we have a minister charged with tax fraud, another charged
with child neglect, and another convicted of child
molestation. You are blessed to have such a clientele.

--
Frederick E. Jorden http://Tax-Accounting-Payroll.com
7825 Midlothian Tpk - 207 Richmond, VA 23235-5247
EMAIL knowtax[at]bigfoot.com
(804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

I really appreciate everyones responses. I will try to
clarify some things. First of all, this "pastor" is an
in-law to me. Second of all, I use to belong to the church,
until he got greedy and power hungry.

I was one of the original 10 as an original co-signer. Am I
asking this stuff out of revenge? Not really, I think I am
past that, I am asking more out of concern for people that
are continually getting screwed by these so called "men of
the cloth". I have been around church for 25 years and I am
so disenheartened by what I have seen go on.

The way he made 80k on this sale was pure manipulation of
the seller. He was presently renting the house and simple
talked the sellers into a rock bottom price. The housing
prices in this area have sky rocketed and he knew it.

I am assuming that the pastor took out the entire loan in
the name of the church. I know he does not have the credit
to even get a car loan, so everything was put under the
church name. How the paperwork is manipulated in the
background I dont know...but I want to find out.

That is the short and long of it...again thanks for your
responses.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

Interesting. I specialize in clergy and religious workers
tax returns, and I have yet to run into an "intereting
ethical issue." I am glad they are rare and I have not had
to deal with any.

Mike

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"rod" <rwilsonsr[at]foundation.uconn.edu> wrote:

- quote -

if only his name is on the title, legally 80k profit belongs
to him. another question is who put downpayment for the
church. Whose names were on the title of church. Church was
incorporated?

In any case, 80k should be returned to the church morally
speaking.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

rod wrote:

- quote -

While it would depend on how the purchase is documented,
when a church buys a parsonage it would own it and profit
from any increase in value. Sometimes clergy returns present
interesting ethical issues. And folks knock business ethics.

--
Frederick E. Jorden http://Tax-Accounting-Payroll.com
7825 Midlothian Tpk - 207 Richmond, VA 23235-5247
EMAIL knowtax[at]bigfoot.com
(804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

rwilsonsr[at]foundation.uconn.edu (rod) wrote:

- quote -

Who owns the house? Who is liable on the mortgage?
The church or him?

Katie in San Diego

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"rod" <rwilsonsr[at]foundation.uconn.edu> wrote:

- quote -

Let me rephrase your situation - a man bought a grocery
store 7 years ago and had 10 people cosign the loan. This
year he refinanced, took the 9 others off the loan, took out
$130K cash and bought the house he was renting and living in
as his residence. Then he sold the residence for an $80K
profit. Who does the $80K belong to, the man or the grocery
store?

The problem with your question - and my silliness - lies in
the underlying factors which we don't have. We don't know
who owned the building; it could have been the minister
personally (nothing against a minister owning property), it
could have been "The Church" - we simply don't know.

We also don't know how the residence was owned - by the
minister personally or by the church.

SIDE NOTE - I am a bit leery about anyone who can make an
$80K profit on a residence held less than 1 year, but there
are parts of the county that this is happening in.

Consequently, we don't know where the gain should be reported.

May we ask what your concern is?

Gene E. Utterback, EA

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"rod" <rwilsonsr[at]foundation.uconn.edu> wrote:

- quote -

Really not a tax question. It's a question of real
estate/banking law.

--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"rod" <rwilsonsr[at]foundation.uconn.edu> wrote:

- quote -

I'm guessing this is far more a legal question than a tax
question. Even if he owned the funds he received in the
refi, and so bought the house with his own money, there is
still an argument for fraud on buying at below market value.
Seems at best if he now pays the church back the $130,000
he "borrowed" to buy the house, at best the gain on the sale
is a short term capital gain. It wasn't his when he lived
there before.

But the whole thing is more a matter for a lawyer than for
tax. First you have to determine what belongs to whom.

Jo

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

The church.

The above scenario is not unusual, assuming that the church
was the title holder on all the above.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

I am under the the impression that the in return for the
for the piviledge of being a 501(c)(3), the profits of the
501(C)(3) may not accrue to to any other entity expect for
reasonable expenses. The church owned the the church
building. The church refinanced the the church building
and used to cash out to purchase the parsonage. The church
is now selling the parsonage. All funds from the sale of
the parsonage belong to the church.

Amaxing as it may sound the are record at the office of the
county assessor. Check out those records before porceeding
further.

Please excuse my spelling errors as I am on Percaset and my
child bride wife will not buy alchohol for me i.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Hi all, I have a clergy/tax related question.

This is the pastors situation.

He bought a building for a church 7 years ago, he had 10
people sign for the loan. This year he decided to
refinance. The pastor went to the bank, refinanced the
building, I believe the refi went through mostly because the
building is apprased at twice what he paid for it, this got
everyones name off the initial loan and he took out an extra
130k in the refi to buy the house he was renting,
"parsonage?".

A couple of weeks ago he put the house up for sale and
stands to profit about 80k from the sale.

Who does the 80k belong to? The church or him?

Thanks
R

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->