joeu2004[at]hotmail.com (Joe User) wrote:

- quote -

snip

Sorry it has taken me so long to get to this. I agree with
you. The form is wrong, or at least misleading.

The purpose of the DE-4 is to tell the employer (1) your
marital status; (2) the number of withholding exemptions you
wish to claim; and (3) the amount you wish to have withheld
IN ADDITION TO the amount that would be withheld based on
items (1) and (2), if any.

The "OR" makes no sense in this context. The federal W-4
has a little different format but it clearly asks for BOTH
the number of exemptions (line 1) AND the additional amount,
if any, to be withheld (line 2).

My guess is that most employers take the "OR" for "AND" and
have never thought about it. They have to have all those
pieces of information to set up your withholding. Even if
you chose "single" and "zero" (which logically you would, to
get the maximum amount withheld and perhaps avoid the
additional amount altogether), they need to know that. So I
wouldn't worry too much about the employer being confused. I
might just cross out the "OR" which is unnecessary anyway.
Or white it out <G> .

I think you already figured out that any correspondence
about this form should be directed to the Employment
Development Department (EDD), not FTB.

Katie in San Diego

The foregoing is intended for educational purposes only and does not
constitute legal or professional advice.

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"A.G. Kalman" <glendale202-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

skip

- quote -

To which A.G. responded:

- quote -

I hope I'm not reading too much into this, but whether "is"
means "is" or, and/or, whether it's its or it's it's (it's
not its unless it's not it's) or not, it's and.

I vote for User.

--Harry B., tax pedant and picker of nits.

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Dave Woods <davidwoods[at]verizon.net> wrote:

- quote -

As I explained: "I want to vet it here before reporting
the mistake to the FTB. Am I making a mistake?" Klunk!

Oh well, it has been 4 days, and not a single constructive
comment. I hope that means that my observation is not
"obviously" wrong.

So yes, I will follow through with the EDD (not the FTB,
as I wrote previously).

As for the importance ....

Actually, it is not important to me as an individual.
My company has its own electronic equivalent of the
DE-4 content, and they did interpret the "OR" as "AND",
in effect.

However, this became an issue when I was advising my wife
on how to fill in the DE-4 for her job. I was worried
that the office manager might misinterpret the form, which
would result in an incorrect amount being withheld.

Of course, we could deal with that on an individual basis,
since the office is so small. I'm sure there would be no
problem convincing the office manager to do the "right"
thing for us.

But I expected the professionals in this forum to look
at the bigger picture and foresee the potential for
"misinterpretation" of DE-4 by many others. Therefore,
I expected some of you to rally behind the need to correct
the form -- if, indeed, my observation was correct.

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"A.G. Kalman" <glendale202-mtm[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -

Which is why I wrote originally: "__I__ added the line
numbers "a", "b", and "c" for clarity". Klunk!

I do not believe the addition of subsection numbers
affects the interpretation of the form vis-a-vis my
question, namely the interpretation of "OR" in the form.

If you feel differently, I would be interested in how
your interpretation of the "OR" differs from any of the
alternatives that I offered.

However, "I advise you" to reread my originally posting
carefully first.

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Joe User wrote:

- quote -

I don't know what version of the DE-4 you are looking at.
My version is quite clear and does not contain any "1. a, b
or c."

1. Number of allowances for Regular Withholding Allowances,
Worksheet A __________________

Number of allowances from the Estimated Deductions,
Worksheet B _____________

Total Number of Allowances (A + B) ________________________

OR

2. Additional amount of state income to be withheld each pay
period (if employer agrees), Worksheet C __________________

I advise you to download the most current version.

--

Alan
http://taxtopics.net

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"Joe User" <joeu2004[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

I guess this all depends on what the definition of the word
"is" is. Is this really all that important to you? If it
is, might I inquire as to why you haven't contacted the FTB?

--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Boston, MA 02109

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It seems quite obvious that Calif Form DE-4 is wrong.
So obviously wrong for so long that I doubt my own
conclusion.

So I want to vet it here before reporting the mistake
to the FTB. Am I making a mistake?

Calif Form DE-4 has the following structure:

----- BEGIN FORM EXCERPT
1a. Number of Regular Withholding Allowances,
Worksheet A ___

b. Number of Additional Withholding Allowances,
Worksheet B ___

c. Total Number of Allowances ___

OR

2. Additional [dollar] amount, Worksheet C ___
----- END FORM EXCERPT

(I added the line numbers "a", "b", and "c" for clarity.)

At issue is the word "OR". I think it should be "AND".

The natural interpretation is "line 1 OR line 2". But if
that were correct, what would line 2 be "additional" to?

Moreover, in computing line 2, Worksheet C line 13 takes
line 1c into account. The instructions are to account
for "the amount that will be withheld [from] your wages
based on the [filing] status and number of withholding
allowances you will claim".

So I conclude that the intent of the form is "line 1 AND
line 2".

When I file Form DE-4, I would cross out "OR" and write
"AND" in order to ensure that the employer understands
my intent.

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