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#16
05-09-2004, 10:25 PM
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 Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Replies like this are what make this group so valuable. Most of the time, you get a really professional answer. Alan knew the code well enough to express an opinion that was well supported by the language of the code section but contrary to my understanding. When challenged, he researched it thoroughly and found how the code section language had been softened. I was sure I was right but I had never gone to the trouble to determine exactly why. Now I know. Thanks for the insight. A.G. Kalman at glendale202-mtm[at]yahoo.com wrote: - quote - > IRC Sec. 72(t): > (2) Subsection not to apply to certain distributions Except > as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4), paragraph (1) shall > not apply to any of the following distributions: > (A) In general > Distributions which are-- > (v) made to an employee after separation from service after > attainment of age 55, > ================================================== ============== > However, I forgot about Notice 87-13 (the Q&As for Section > 1123 of TRA '86). > Q-20: What additional tax on early distributions from > qualified retirement plans applies under section 72(t) (as > added by TRA '86)? > A-20: Section 72(t) (as added by TRA '86) applies an > additional tax equal to 10 percent of the portion of any > "early distribution" from a qualified retirement plan (as > defined in section 4974(c) of the Code) that is includible > in the taxpayer's gross income. A distribution (including > deemed distributions under section 72(p)) is treated as an > "early distribution" unless it is described in section > 72(t)(2)(A) (taking into account section 72(t)(3) & (4)). A > distribution to an employee from a qualified plan will be > treated as within section 72(t)(2)(A)(v) if (i) it is made > after the employee has separated from service for the > employer maintaining the plan and (ii) such separation from > service occurred during or after the calendar year in which > the employee attained age 55. > ================================================== =============== > Therefore, I stand corrected. The IRS appears to have been > generous in its interpretation of Section 1123. All freely provided advice guarantee correct or double your money back Frank S. Duke, Jr. CPA Cincinnati, OH USA << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#15
05-08-2004, 11:55 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty - quote - > > Hmmm... Isn't it "at age 55 at the TIME one separates from
I disagree with your Rule 2 above. As long as the employee> > service? (instead of 55 in the YEAR one separates?) > There are two rules that must be met to avoid the 10% > additional tax. > 1. Separation from service must occur in either the year the > employee turns age 55 or after the year the employee turns > age 55. > 2. The distribution has to occur after the employee attains > age 55. > It is therefore possible for the employee to be age 54 when > employment terminates. However, the employee would still > have to be at least age 55 when the distribution is made. terminates employment in or after the year he turns 55, he is allowed to take a penalty-free distribution after such termination. He DOES NOT have to be 55 or older at the time of the distribution. At least that is the way I read the exeption explanation in Pub 575: "Additional exceptions for qualified retirement plans. The tax does not apply to distributions that are: • From a qualified retirement plan (other than an IRA) after your separation from service in or after the year you reached age 55." << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#14
05-08-2004, 11:55 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty - quote - > > You got it. If you terminate your employment with that
You misunderstood the reply, Rick++, as it referred only to> > employer IN OR AFTER THE YEAR that you turn 55, you can make > > withdrawals from your employer-sponsored plan without > > penalty. If you roll the plan assets over to another plan or > > a traditional IRA, you lose the exception and have to wait > > until age 59-1/2 to take penalty-free withdrawals. > Wrong. If you roll it into an IRA, you can withdreaw > without the 10% penalty at any age as long you annuitize > your withdrawals for at least five years (take out the > percentage based on your lifespan according to the IRS > annuity tables). You still have to pay regular incom tax on > the amount. losing the "age 55" exemption when you roll the plan into an IRA. The Substantially Equal Periodic Payments (SEPP) exemption still applies with either an IRA or a qualified retirement plan. << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#13
05-08-2004, 11:55 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty - quote - > > > > > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55:
IRC Sec. 72(t):> > > > > > > > > "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > > > > > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > > > > > still with your employer." > > > > > > > > > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > > > > > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > > > > > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > > > > > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > > > > > something? > > > > First let's clarify the age 55 rule: > > > > > > > If you are at least age 55 in the year in which you separate > > > > from service from an employer and take a distribution from a > > > > qualified employer plan, such as a 401k or 403b plan, then > > > > there is no additional 10% tax on that early distributon. > > > > > > > But if you were only age 53 in the year you separated from > > > > service with that employer, and in the year you turn 57 you > > > > take a 401k distribution, that distribution is not excluded > > > > from the early distribution tax by the age 55 rule. > > > > > > > If you were at least age 55 in the year you separated and > > > > rollover the 401k plan into an IRA, the IRA age rules rule. > > > > You now have to be age 59 1/2 or meet one of a limited > > > > number of exclusions, to not be subject to the additional > > > > 10% early distribution tax. > > > Hmmm... Isn't it "at age 55 at the TIME one separates from > > > service? (instead of 55 in the YEAR one separates?) > > There are two rules that must be met to avoid the 10% > > additional tax. > > > 1. Separation from service must occur in either the year the > > employee turns age 55 or after the year the employee turns > > age 55. > > > 2. The distribution has to occur after the employee attains > > age 55. > > > It is therefore possible for the employee to be age 54 when > > employment terminates. However, the employee would still > > have to be at least age 55 when the distribution is made. > If so, perhaps the IRS should re-write the description on > Page 28 of IRS Pub 575, which says only that you have to be > age 55 that year, not that you have to take the distirbution > after reaching age 55. > Recognizing that a Pub is not binding, it is odd that this > sort of error would creep through. Could you please post the > language of the statute or code? (2) Subsection not to apply to certain distributions Except as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4), paragraph (1) shall not apply to any of the following distributions: (A) In general Distributions which are-- (v) made to an employee after separation from service after attainment of age 55, ================================================== ============== However, I forgot about Notice 87-13 (the Q&As for Section 1123 of TRA '86). Q-20: What additional tax on early distributions from qualified retirement plans applies under section 72(t) (as added by TRA '86)? A-20: Section 72(t) (as added by TRA '86) applies an additional tax equal to 10 percent of the portion of any "early distribution" from a qualified retirement plan (as defined in section 4974(c) of the Code) that is includible in the taxpayer's gross income. A distribution (including deemed distributions under section 72(p)) is treated as an "early distribution" unless it is described in section 72(t)(2)(A) (taking into account section 72(t)(3) & (4)). A distribution to an employee from a qualified plan will be treated as within section 72(t)(2)(A)(v) if (i) it is made after the employee has separated from service for the employer maintaining the plan and (ii) such separation from service occurred during or after the calendar year in which the employee attained age 55. ================================================== =============== Therefore, I stand corrected. The IRS appears to have been generous in its interpretation of Section 1123. -- Alan http://taxtopics.net << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#12
05-05-2004, 08:14 PM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty - quote - > > > > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55:
If so, perhaps the IRS should re-write the description on> > > > > > > "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > > > > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > > > > still with your employer." > > > > > > > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > > > > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > > > > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > > > > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > > > > something? > > > First let's clarify the age 55 rule: > > > > > If you are at least age 55 in the year in which you separate > > > from service from an employer and take a distribution from a > > > qualified employer plan, such as a 401k or 403b plan, then > > > there is no additional 10% tax on that early distributon. > > > > > But if you were only age 53 in the year you separated from > > > service with that employer, and in the year you turn 57 you > > > take a 401k distribution, that distribution is not excluded > > > from the early distribution tax by the age 55 rule. > > > > > If you were at least age 55 in the year you separated and > > > rollover the 401k plan into an IRA, the IRA age rules rule. > > > You now have to be age 59 1/2 or meet one of a limited > > > number of exclusions, to not be subject to the additional > > > 10% early distribution tax. > > Hmmm... Isn't it "at age 55 at the TIME one separates from > > service? (instead of 55 in the YEAR one separates?) > There are two rules that must be met to avoid the 10% > additional tax. > 1. Separation from service must occur in either the year the > employee turns age 55 or after the year the employee turns > age 55. > 2. The distribution has to occur after the employee attains > age 55. > It is therefore possible for the employee to be age 54 when > employment terminates. However, the employee would still > have to be at least age 55 when the distribution is made. Page 28 of IRS Pub 575, which says only that you have to be age 55 that year, not that you have to take the distirbution after reaching age 55. Recognizing that a Pub is not binding, it is odd that this sort of error would creep through. Could you please post the language of the statute or code? __ Art Kamlet ArtKamlet [at] AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#11
05-05-2004, 07:55 PM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Harlan Lunsford <hlunsfordns[at]bellsouth.net> wrote: - quote - > Arthur Kamlet wrote:
Nope.> > Al Bundy <postmaster[at]127.0.0.1> wrote: > > > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55: > > > > > "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > > > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > > > still with your employer." > > > > > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > > > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > > > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > > > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > > > something? > > First let's clarify the age 55 rule: > > > If you are at least age 55 in the year in which you separate > > from service from an employer and take a distribution from a > > qualified employer plan, such as a 401k or 403b plan, then > > there is no additional 10% tax on that early distributon. > > > But if you were only age 53 in the year you separated from > > service with that employer, and in the year you turn 57 you > > take a 401k distribution, that distribution is not excluded > > from the early distribution tax by the age 55 rule. > > > If you were at least age 55 in the year you separated and > > rollover the 401k plan into an IRA, the IRA age rules rule. > > You now have to be age 59 1/2 or meet one of a limited > > number of exclusions, to not be subject to the additional > > 10% early distribution tax. > Hmmm... Isn't it "at age 55 at the TIME one separates from > service? (instead of 55 in the YEAR one separates?) See IRS Pub 575 page 28 Additional exceptions for qualified retirement plans. The tax does not apply to distributions that are: A qualified employee plan after your separation from service in or after the year you reached age 55, __ Art Kamlet ArtKamlet [at] AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#10
05-05-2004, 07:35 PM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty - quote - > > You got it. If you terminate your employment with that
I agree with you but I don't agree that what I said was> > employer IN OR AFTER THE YEAR that you turn 55, you can make > > withdrawals from your employer-sponsored plan without > > penalty. If you roll the plan assets over to another plan or > > a traditional IRA, you lose the exception and have to wait > > until age 59-1/2 to take penalty-free withdrawals. > Wrong. If you roll it into an IRA, you can withdreaw > without the 10% penalty at any age as long you annuitize > your withdrawals for at least five years (take out the > percentage based on your lifespan according to the IRS > annuity tables). You still have to pay regular incom tax on > the amount. wrong. You can always take a series of substantially even payments but it certainly has a lot more restrictions. You can also die or become permanently and completely disabled but these alternatives are not in most people's planning options. All freely provided advice guarantee correct or double your money back Frank S. Duke, Jr. CPA Cincinnati, OH USA << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#9
05-05-2004, 07:35 PM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Harlan Lunsford <lunstax[at]bellsouth.net> wrote: - quote - > Arthur Kamlet wrote:
No, Harlan, it is "55 or older in the year of separation".> > Al Bundy <postmaster[at]127.0.0.1> wrote: > > > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55: > > > > > "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > > > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > > > still with your employer." > > > > > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > > > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > > > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > > > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > > > something? > > First let's clarify the age 55 rule: > > > If you are at least age 55 in the year in which you separate > > from service from an employer and take a distribution from a > > qualified employer plan, such as a 401k or 403b plan, then > > there is no additional 10% tax on that early distributon. > > > But if you were only age 53 in the year you separated from > > service with that employer, and in the year you turn 57 you > > take a 401k distribution, that distribution is not excluded > > from the early distribution tax by the age 55 rule. > > > If you were at least age 55 in the year you separated and > > rollover the 401k plan into an IRA, the IRA age rules rule. > > You now have to be age 59 1/2 or meet one of a limited > > number of exclusions, to not be subject to the additional > > 10% early distribution tax. > Hmmm... Isn't it "at age 55 at the TIME one separates from > service? (instead of 55 in the YEAR one separates?) Which means (if your birthday is in December) you could terminate and start withdrawing at age 54! << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#8
05-05-2004, 07:16 PM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty - quote - > > First let's clarify the age 55 rule:
You can separate from service on 1 January and start to take> > > If you are at least age 55 in the year in which you separate > > from service from an employer and take a distribution from a > > qualified employer plan, such as a 401k or 403b plan, then > > there is no additional 10% tax on that early distributon. > Hmmm... Isn't it "at age 55 at the TIME one separates from > service? (instead of 55 in the YEAR one separates?) ad hoc distributions from qualified plans even if you don't celebrate your birthday until 31 December. Very nice rule. All freely provided advice guarantee correct or double your money back Frank S. Duke, Jr. CPA Cincinnati, OH USA << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#7
05-04-2004, 04:20 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Harlan Lunsford wrote: - quote - > Arthur Kamlet wrote:
There are two rules that must be met to avoid the 10%> > Al Bundy <postmaster[at]127.0.0.1> wrote: > > > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55: > > > > > "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > > > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > > > still with your employer." > > > > > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > > > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > > > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > > > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > > > something? > > First let's clarify the age 55 rule: > > > If you are at least age 55 in the year in which you separate > > from service from an employer and take a distribution from a > > qualified employer plan, such as a 401k or 403b plan, then > > there is no additional 10% tax on that early distributon. > > > But if you were only age 53 in the year you separated from > > service with that employer, and in the year you turn 57 you > > take a 401k distribution, that distribution is not excluded > > from the early distribution tax by the age 55 rule. > > > If you were at least age 55 in the year you separated and > > rollover the 401k plan into an IRA, the IRA age rules rule. > > You now have to be age 59 1/2 or meet one of a limited > > number of exclusions, to not be subject to the additional > > 10% early distribution tax. > Hmmm... Isn't it "at age 55 at the TIME one separates from > service? (instead of 55 in the YEAR one separates?) additional tax. 1. Separation from service must occur in either the year the employee turns age 55 or after the year the employee turns age 55. 2. The distribution has to occur after the employee attains age 55. It is therefore possible for the employee to be age 54 when employment terminates. However, the employee would still have to be at least age 55 when the distribution is made. -- Alan http://taxtopics.net << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#6
05-04-2004, 04:01 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty - quote - > You got it. If you terminate your employment with that
Wrong. If you roll it into an IRA, you can withdreaw> employer IN OR AFTER THE YEAR that you turn 55, you can make > withdrawals from your employer-sponsored plan without > penalty. If you roll the plan assets over to another plan or > a traditional IRA, you lose the exception and have to wait > until age 59-1/2 to take penalty-free withdrawals. without the 10% penalty at any age as long you annuitize your withdrawals for at least five years (take out the percentage based on your lifespan according to the IRS annuity tables). You still have to pay regular incom tax on the amount. << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#5
05-03-2004, 09:15 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Arthur Kamlet wrote: - quote - > Al Bundy <postmaster[at]127.0.0.1> wrote:
Hmmm... Isn't it "at age 55 at the TIME one separates from> > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55: > > > "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > > still with your employer." > > > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > > something? > First let's clarify the age 55 rule: > If you are at least age 55 in the year in which you separate > from service from an employer and take a distribution from a > qualified employer plan, such as a 401k or 403b plan, then > there is no additional 10% tax on that early distributon. > But if you were only age 53 in the year you separated from > service with that employer, and in the year you turn 57 you > take a 401k distribution, that distribution is not excluded > from the early distribution tax by the age 55 rule. > If you were at least age 55 in the year you separated and > rollover the 401k plan into an IRA, the IRA age rules rule. > You now have to be age 59 1/2 or meet one of a limited > number of exclusions, to not be subject to the additional > 10% early distribution tax. service? (instead of 55 in the YEAR one separates?) Cheer$, Harlan Lunsford << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#4
04-30-2004, 09:24 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Al Bundy <postmaster[at]127.0.0.1> wrote: - quote - > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55:
You got it. If you terminate your employment with that> "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > still with your employer." > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > something? employer IN OR AFTER THE YEAR that you turn 55, you can make withdrawals from your employer-sponsored plan without penalty. If you roll the plan assets over to another plan or a traditional IRA, you lose the exception and have to wait until age 59-1/2 to take penalty-free withdrawals. << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#3
04-30-2004, 08:27 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Al Bundy wrote: - quote - > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55:
Essentially. For a more complicated question, if you have> "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > still with your employer." > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > something? an IRA (in previous years, it would have had to have been a conduit IRA, but that changed in 2001), and roll it into an employer plan, and then terminate employment after age 55, does that apply to the ENTIRE plan, or just the part that originated with that employer? << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#2
04-30-2004, 08:27 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty - quote - > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55:
That's exactly what it means.> "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > still with your employer." > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 Phil Marti Topeka, KS << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#1
04-30-2004, 08:08 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Al Bundy <postmaster[at]127.0.0.1> wrote: - quote - > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55:
First let's clarify the age 55 rule:> "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > still with your employer." > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > something? If you are at least age 55 in the year in which you separate from service from an employer and take a distribution from a qualified employer plan, such as a 401k or 403b plan, then there is no additional 10% tax on that early distributon. But if you were only age 53 in the year you separated from service with that employer, and in the year you turn 57 you take a 401k distribution, that distribution is not excluded from the early distribution tax by the age 55 rule. If you were at least age 55 in the year you separated and rollover the 401k plan into an IRA, the IRA age rules rule. You now have to be age 59 1/2 or meet one of a limited number of exclusions, to not be subject to the additional 10% early distribution tax. __ Art Kamlet ArtKamlet [at] AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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04-30-2004, 07:49 AM
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| Re: Retirement money at 55 without penalty Al Bundy at postmaster[at]127.0.0.1 wrote: - quote - > I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55:
This works for qualified plans but NOT IRAs. If you roll it> "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money > without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is > still with your employer." > I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with > this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". > Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money > elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or > something? into an IRA, you will have to take a series of substantially equal payments for 5 years to get at it without the 10% penalty. All freely provided advice guarantee correct or double your money back Frank S. Duke, Jr. CPA Cincinnati, OH USA << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
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#-1
04-27-2004, 05:33 PM
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| Retirement money at 55 without penalty I read a "Magic Birthday" blip that at 55: "The age at which you can begin to use employer plan money without penalty if you terminate employment and the plan is still with your employer." I left the money there for now. What catches my eye with this statement is "the plan is still with your employer". Does this mean if I choose at some time to roll the money elsewhere the penalty age changes to like 59 1/2 or something? Thanks... << -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << -------------------------------------------------> |
| Tags |
| money, penalty, retirement |
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