John Smith wrote:
- quote -

It's in the regs. I don't recall the citation, but I'm
certain that if I looked it up, I CAN cite it.

However, I do recall that upon their failure to issue within
30 days, the taxpayer/estate may appeal to the local IRS
district director (not certain who that would be now; these
are older regulations) and the DD gets 30 days to decide the
appeal.

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Arthur L. Rubin wrote:
- quote -

Wrong as to "due date." In the law, it's still on the 15th
day of the fourth month following the end of the tax year
(the date of death). There is nothing in the STATUTE that
overrides that. By regulation (TR 1.6072-1(b)), it is
simply NOT CONSIDERED LATE if filed by the normal due date
had the decedent not died (by stating that the closing of
the year due to death is ignored - i.e. going with a full
12-month period).

[I agree that the regulation says it has a "normal due
date," but I disagree that the Secretary has authority to
promulgate a regulation that is contrary to statute - and
there is no specific delegation here; only that of the
office's general authority. Statute makes no exception for
death in this case. Therefore, I interpret the regulation as
saying that the return is not late if filed by the due date
that would result if the decedent lived a full year, but I
disagree that statute allows the Secretary to call that the
"due date" as he does in the regulation.]

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Martha Matthews, EA wrote:

- quote -

I think we may have a distinction between "tax year" and
"tax filing year". Obviously, any entity can exist at some
point and then be dissolved at a later point. Nonetheless,
the "tax filing year" for a trust that becomes irrevocable
on the death of the grantor is a full calendar year, for the
purpose of such provisions of law such as "... this applies
to all tax years beginning after December 31, 2003 ...". If
you want to say that the tax year of an entity (or person)
only begins when the entity forms, that's a definition, and
it applies for some purposes, but not timed provisions of
tax law.

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"Arthur L. Rubin" <ronnirubin[at]sprintmail.com> wrote in
- quote -

The trust begins on January 1 only if it is not a grantor
trust and it was funded by January 1. Grantor trusts become
irrevocable trusts the day the grantor dies. That's when its
tax year begins.

SNIP

Martha Matthews, EA

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"D. Stussy" <kd6lvw[at]bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
- quote -

Thanks so much for your reply.

This is exactly the response I was hoping for. Can you cite
chapter and verse on what obligates them to do this so that
I cite it to them when I send them a certified letter
formally requesting the 1099-R. I've tried contacting them,
the Board of Ed of the City of New York, and they told me
that cannot deliver a 1099-R earlier than January 31, 2005.
The best they are willing to send me is a letter on
letterhead telling me how much she was paid and how much was
withheld.

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Martha Matthews, EA wrote:
- quote -

I agree with the latter, but with one caveat:

Once, I had the IRS return a decedent's final return to me
as "unprocessible" not because the return wasn't in final
form but because the IRS wasn't ready to handle the return
until the upcoming January. I sent it right back because it
was a refund return and told them to "deal with it."

[Had it been a balance due return, I would have held it
until the period of limitations expired, and then when the
IRS comes back under their non-filer program, I would have
showed them the return, complete with its service center
received stamp right on the front (as well as a field
office's stamp), and then told them they were SOL.]

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John Smith wrote:

- quote -

Under the law, yes. However, the IRS won't be able to
process it until January 2005. Definently get proof that
you submitted it early in case they send it back as
unprocessible due to their error.

- quote -

Within 30 days from the date of your request.

- quote -

Not with credit for the withholding.

- quote -

Unlike W-2's, there is no taxpayer-origined substitute for a 1099.

- quote -

No. The estate can't be closed without filing the return.

- quote -

Not legally.

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"Martha Matthews, EA" <mt6smv[at]earthlink.net> wrote:

- quote -

Thanks for your reply.

How would you recommend we handle not having a 1099-R
showing the withheld amount?

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Martha Matthews, EA wrote:
- quote -

Perhaps. You should know, but I choose to respond to
your next sentence first.

- quote -

The ESTATE (or trust's) extistence begins the next day. The
tax year for the estate could begin earlier. In the case of
a trust not considered part of the estate, the tax year
begins the preceding January 1.

As for the when the decedent's tax year ends -- you may be
correct. However, the IRS might easily choose not to process
the return until 2005, on the grounds that THEIR software is
not available, even if it could legally be filed on 2003
forms. Furthermore, the "prompt assessment" request relates
to the time the return is due (4/15/05), so there's little
benefit to filing early.

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"Arthur L. Rubin" <ronnirubin[at]sprintmail.com> wrote in

SNIP

- quote -

Actually, the decedent's tax year ends the day they die. Thge
estate's or now irrevocable trust begins the next day. If there
is no tax due under 2003 and it is doubtful any change would
change that I'd file early but long after tax season is over.

SNIP

Martha S. Matthews, EA

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John Smith wrote:

- quote -

No. In YOUR case, it might not matter, but tax laws
will probably (OK, DEFINATELY) change beform the 2004
tax is due. Under the law, she DOESN'T have a short
tax year -- it still ends December 31, 2004.

There are procedures for entitites (such as the estate, if
you do manage to close it in 2004) to have years beginning
and ending within a calendar year, and you could file the
estate's income tax returns using corrected 2003 forms.

- quote -

I don't see why not. But that's a legal question, not
a tax question.

- quote -

That sounds like an option, as well.

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rshap2l[at]yahoo.com (John Smith) wrote in news:1073e5cbc3gqj70

- quote -

Closing the estate most likley will not protect it from
creditors. State law determines how long creditors have to
make claims against the estate and if the estate is closed
against those who got the money. In OH it is one year.

- quote -

Most anything is possible but this would not be recommended.
Give the IRS a time to deal with the overload of 2003
returns.

When I have a decedent's return and want to file it early to
close things out I mark through the year on the form and put
in 2004. This assumes there is no tax due or a very small
amount. I would wait at least until June.

- quote -

I doubt it. How can they prepare it if the form is not
available?

- quote -

If you have something from the company which shows the
withholding you might be okay.

- quote -

I wouldn't do that.

- quote -

Tecnically if the executor is no longer an executor because
the estate is closed he or she should not sign the return.
The beneficiary could. In OH we have to close estates in 6
months if OH estate tax is not due. The fiduciary remains
active until one year form the date of death to handle
situations such as yours or addidiotnal debts, etc.

- quote -

Assuming income is below the filing limit why not? IRS would
like to keep its books straight so I don't know what they do
with the withholding if nothing is filed. Wiser heads than
mine can answer most of the above questions better than I.

BTW - the tax return is not difficult and you should be able
to do it in 5 minutes if all you have is pension income. I'd
wait until the 2004 forms come out and do it while you are
working on your own return.

Martha S. Matthews, EA

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My mother passed away in February. She had a pension in
which they withheld something like $45. She also gets a
small refund from NY. Overall, her 2004 income is way below
the threshold for filing, so the only reason to file would
be to get the refunds back. I'd hate to have to hold the
estate open though 2005 just to collect around $100. We want
the estate closed to be protected from any creditors that we
don't know about at the earliest possible date.

1) Is it possible to file her 2004 taxes now?
2) Does her former employer have to issue a 1099-R now
if we ask?
3) Can we file without the 1099-R?
4) Can we write in our own substitute 1099-R from the
pension stub?
5) Can the administrator or beneficiary file the return
after the estate has been closed?
6) Do we have to file the returns at all, can we just
forfeit the money withheld?

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