- quote -

don't have to prove by way of exam that we were awake during our
CPE classes...

Patrick Fleming, EA

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Helen P. OPlanick EA <heljangal[at]aol.comnojunk> wrote:

- quote -

And this woman is a certified jailbird.

__
Art Kamlet ArtKamlet [at] AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

Nah... it means you know where to look up the answers. <VBG
Hubby is into drugs and his CPE is not only correspondence,
but when he does a classroom (or more a less over dinner)
CPE hour, he not only has to pay attention (well, not snore)
but take a test at the end. I've attended some dinners with
him and I have about 40 hours in Pharmacy CPE myself.

Helen, EA in PA
Member of The Tax Gang
President, PA Society of Enrolled Agents
Campaigning for NAEA Board of Directors - Looking for YOUR vote

================================================== ==========
Moderator:
It's just another woman trying to defend the drug dealer
with whom she is shacked up.
================================================== ==========

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Shagnasty wrote:
- quote -

I would say, based upon my experience (limited as it is)
that to get credit for attending you must actually attend
the class/session in question. There are plenty of courses
out there that are correspondence and those require mailing
in a quiz of some sort to get a grade which results in hours
or not. So the assumption *seems* to be: if you showed up,
you learned the material, otherwhise you have to prove it by
taking a test or quiz of some sort and you have to answer at
least 70% right on those.

Since I do most of my hours through some form of
correspondence does that mean my hours are worth more as
they have a test?

Patrick

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Shagnasty <Shag[at]nospam.com> wrote:

- quote -

I agree, at least 99.9999% of the time.

I do think CPE can be beneficial, but only when you (as a
professional) retain the ability to determine ~which~
courses or topics meet your needs. These rules that require
a certain number of hours in certain areas, or limit hours
in certain other areas, are stupid.

MTW

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Helen P. OPlanick EA wrote:

- quote -

While the answer will vary by state, the organization would
generally be the one to take the next step, because the
organization would generally be the one that, should push
come to shove, be asked to confirm that these individuals
actually completed the CPE that the organization claims to
have given them.

The CPA is only going to be "in trouble" if he/she submits
these hours to their state board and what they have done
falls short of the requirements to obtain those hours. While
I strongly suspect the latter is true (he/she isn't entitled
to 16 hours of CPE), the violation may not take place until
the next renewal date--so, as of right now, nothing has
happened that would be clearly actionable. There's always
the chance of getting an "act discreditable" charge to
stick, but I don't see a state board getting really excited
since nailing them on falsifying CPE is a lot easier <grin> ,
so from their perspective they'll likely wait.

Now the *organization* could get in real trouble if they go
ahead and issue a certificate confirming the CPE to the CPA
after you've informed them that the person wasn't there. If
they were to issue the certificate, they are not living up
to their responsibilities and that could create problems
with a state board of accountancy--problems that the board
could act on now <grin> . I think you'll find that if the
organization operates in a number of states, they may be
*very* sensitive to this since problems there could create a
number of issues that could jeopardize their business with
CPAs.

I suspect the same would be true for EAs--the DOP likely is
going to be difficult to "get interested" in the matter
until a false report is filed. But the organization could
have real problems if it is reported to the DOP that they
are failing to properly monitor attendance and completion of
CPE by their participants.

--
Ed Zollars, CPA
Phoenix, Arizona

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

"D. Stussy" <kd6lvw[at]bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
- quote -

It sounds unethical. But what about someone who attends a
useless seminar and everything goes in one ear and out the
other but he sits through the whole thing and obtains CPE
credit?

For the most part CPE is a waste of time and you get your
REAL professional education by all the studying you do on
items you have to actually deal with rather than seminars on
taxation of race horses or some other seldom-encountered
situation.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

The counts are from 1800 to 3000 in the other ones. LV is
the largest.

And I agree that the IRS cannot keep track of these folks,
there are way too many. But in a small group of 75, it is
easy to keep track of almost everyone.

Helen, EA in PA
Member of The Tax Gang
President, PA Society of Enrolled Agents
Campaigning for NAEA Board of Directors - Looking for YOUR vote

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

- quote -

It was not our semnar, that is not our problem. And the
folks that run it would probably allow Mr. Sick to use it at
a later date, but not refund the cash.

Helen, EA in PA
Member of The Tax Gang
President, PA Society of Enrolled Agents
Campaigning for NAEA Board of Directors - Looking for YOUR vote

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Helen P. OPlanick EA wrote:

- quote -

Opinion:

What it may come down to is whether credit is given based on
having attended the class OR having reviewed the material.
If it is the latter, then you may have a "gray area," but if
the former prevails, then you have an issue.

The IRS ITSELF appears really lax on this - at their
Nationwide Tax Forums. Especially considering the last 5 in
the western region (all at Las Vegas or Reno), or for the
northeast (Atlantic City), I don't see how someone who comes
in, gets his materials but doesn't attend any of the seminars (e.g. spends 3
days in the casino instead), but is around at near the end of the last seminar
and turns in a sheet indicating seminars attended could be caught. The western
edition has had upward of 4,000 attendees (not counting speakers, vendors, and
support staff); I know not the counts for the other editions - but since this
has expanded from 4 two-day 5-seminars/day to 6 three-day 7-seminars/day (with
an occasional 8th as demand indicates - at least here in the west), I can only
guess that the counts are comparable.

Ethical answer: They should be reported.

Practical answer: What's the point of reporting them? The
IRS, as a seminar runner, isn't keeping their own house.

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

Helen P. OPlanick EA wrote:

- quote -

Simple question, simple response.

Mr sick gets zero cpe's, and his associate who at least came
one day, gets his eight hours. that's about as close as we
do it down here, four hour blocks. oh, and I'd refund cost
of seminar less cost of materials.

Christmas Cheer$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->

We have been discussing ethics as it goes with Circ 230.
Can I ask for opinions on another ethical manner?

At a recent 16 hour seminar, one participant was sick. He
asked that the book be sent back with an office mate. Not a
problem. The office mate (CPA who owns the firm if you look
at the name) did not come back for day 2, sent a staff
person instead.

When collecting the CPE sign in sheet, I see that owner-CPA
has signed the sheet for day two (interesting - he was never
there) and when I collected the CPE info sheets for the
organization that gave the CPE, I had one for Mr. Sick
office person (I think also a CPA) and he was turning in 16
hours, even tho he was home in his jammies. Mr Owner also
turned in 16 hours.

I fully intent to tell the organization about these two, but
should I go further? It just galls me that people would
think to do this.

Helen, EA in PA
Member of The Tax Gang
President, PA Society of Enrolled Agents
Campaigning for NAEA Board of Directors - Looking for YOUR vote

<< -------------------------------------------------> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting > << messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org > << ------------------------------------------------->