- quote -

No. It's better to have someone who has experience than to
break in another newbie. A person who doesn't cover the
draw is not necessarily inept. There may be other factors
beyond that person's control that can create that situation.

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kamlet[at]panix.com (Arthur Kamlet) wrote:
- quote -

RE H&R Block -

In the Columbus, Ohio area, the hourly draw is between 7.00
and 7.50, depending on longevity. The commission is a
"blended" rate, based on client retention, longevity, and
last year's production against last years commission rate.
Some office leaders are hourly with draw against commission,
as would be for tax pros and some office leaders are
salaried, with bonus tied to office results, not returns
personally prepared.

As stated previously, H&R Block fees are based on a schedule
and line fee structure, i.e. the more detailed a return and
the more entries, the more the fees would be. An individual
can come in and get a no obligation fee quote based on the
details provided before having a return prepared; I would
dare guess that the competition does take advantage of this.
However, a practitioner worth his / her salt would set fees
based on more than what the guy down the street is charging.
Labor costs, costs of inquiries and audits, continuing education, all
fit into the mix as well as any guarantee / extended service plan
provided. Someone only doing "simple" returns (i.e. car lot tax prep)
can afford to offer a lower price than someone that will stand behind
their work, provide "service after the sale", guarantee and such.

While not all eligible tax pros (or other associate) do
return, absent disciplinary action, a prior year seasonal
associate can expect that Block's tradition of rehiring will
apply to them as well. As related to me, court cases have
been decided in the associate's favor in this regard and
Block has been required to rehire prior year associates.

Independent Block franchisees set their own policy.

--
** Working to make "taxes less taxing" **

Ohio Tax Man - Robert Thompson
Westerville (Columbus) Ohio

My comments are for informational (and sometimes humorous)
AFAIK - as far as I know
DNATAH - do not attempt this at home
purposes only. They do not constitute legal or professional
advice. You are not my client in any specific accounting or
tax matter. Your situation may better benefit if you hire a
professional for an analysis of your specific details.
Finally, the views are my own and should not be attributed
to my employers.

All freely provided advice guarantee correct or double my money back.

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kamlet[at]panix.com (Arthur Kamlet) wrote:
- quote -

No, I wouldn't agree. At least, I never heard of that
happening during the time I worked there.

--
D.F. Manno
dommanno[at]netscape.net
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
(Benjamin Franklin)

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D.F. Manno <dommanno[at]netscape.net> wrote:
- quote -

Sure.

But for tax preparers - not managers - wouldn't you agree
if they cannot cover their draw, their chances of coming
back are pretty small?

__
Art Kamlet ArtKamlet [at] AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH

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kamlet[at]panix.com (Arthur Kamlet) wrote:

- quote -

Not true, at least not when I worked there. Some employees
will never generate commissions that exceed their draw. For
example, a branch office manager works a minimum of 40 hours
a week from January 2 to April 15. Since that includes a lot
of dead time, a manager's draw will almost always exceed
his/her commissions.

--
D.F. Manno
dommanno[at]netscape.net
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
(Benjamin Franklin)

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jake johnson <jake[at]omnimode.com> wrote:
- quote -

The rate probably varies by area, but Block pays a draw
against commission.

If your work generates more than this minimum, and Block
sure hopes so, you will get the remaining commission.

If not, you don't have to repay Block but don't expect to be
re-hired.

__
Art Kamlet ArtKamlet [at] AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH

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jake[at]omnimode.com (jake johnson) wrote:
- quote -

I don't know what the current hourly rate is, but whatever
it is is a draw against commission.

--
D.F. Manno
dommanno[at]netscape.net
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)

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mm.bane[at]verizon.net (mmb) wrote:
[...snip...]
- quote -

Is it true that HRB pays only $7.50/hour?? That's
stunningly low, isn't it? This would be even for a college
graduate? Those are probably the lowest wages this side of
child care attendants.

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D.F. Manno wrote:
- quote -

Wouldn't that price sheet be a "business secret", and
therefore subject to non-disclosure requirements even if HRB
non-compete agreements are invalid?

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- quote -

If we get a new client when we aren't swamped, we usually
key in the prior year's return and proforma it to the
current year's software. We do it primarily because it's
easier than keying in the carryforwards (we do a prior-year
comparison sheet along with the current year's returns, so
even if there are no tax carryforwards, it still saves some
effort). As a plus, it double-checks some of the
preparation.

The last return we did that for, the prior preparer had
inadvertently elected to tax all capital gains at ordinary
rates, not just the amount of capital gains needed to allow
the investment interest expense deduction. It took me 15
minutes to figure out how to force my software to do it
wrong, and it had automatically done it right. Prior
preparer was appalled that he hadn't caught it, and handled
the amended return.

I saw another set of returns done by a local EA who is known
for getting CPE, generally keeping up with things, studying
to be a CPA, etc. The 1065 wasn't internally consistent -
Schedule K didn't tie to the K-1s, lines that should have
been completed were blank, etc. Again, we'd have had to
override to produce that return, and I'm not sure overriding
would have done it.

Now, a bad preparer can produce a bad return with any
software. And a good preparer can produce a good return
with any software. But good software can save you from some
mistakes, and an inexperienced preparer needs all the help
they can get.

Phoebe

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genfinsvcs[at]aol.com (GenFinSvcs) wrote:

- quote -

Except that he would have to take the job with Block in
order to see the price sheet, and even then it's not
available until January.

--
D.F. Manno
dommanno[at]netscape.net
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
(Benjamin Franklin)

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There are two sources of inexpensive software that seems to
do a fairly good job for minimal cost. You can probably get
the 2002 year for free for review. One is Tax Act by Second
Story. I think it runs around $100 for fed and $50 or so
for all states. Sabre by ATX is a little more expensive but
a tad more complete.

About pricing, you might simply use the HRB price sheet with
any adjustments you feel appropriate. Saves wear and tear
on your brain until you get a tax season or two under your
belt and then you can make more constructive pricing
adjustments.

About marketing...hand out your business card to everybody
you come into contact with.Friends, relatives, associates
and neighbors. If you don't ask, they won't generally
volunteer. Watch out for "family" they like it for free.
You might want to give a family special of 25% off and
therefore head them off at the pass. I generally try not to
do family returns, I just don't want to know anything about
them in that area.

Also, go to the local service clubs in the area, Rotary,
Lions, etc and offer to do a free tax seminar in January for
them. Make sure you have the option to hand out a firm
brochure and business card, but don't do a hard sell do a
great presentation. Try to tailor it to the group.

You can also go to seniors groups, employers, etc.

However, the best piece of advice is know what you don't
know and don't be afraid to ask for help from other
preparers you know and have that kind of relationship with
and turn down work that is out of your league. Find a
referral tax preparer with a greater breadth of experience
you can refer to. In the long run it wil save you tears and
actually get you business.

I hope this helps.

Mike

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- quote -

Good point....obviously I cannot justify that statement, as
it is written. I have however, done my own taxes and so when
they said what they charge for doing simple simple simple
returns, it "seemed" ridiculous.

It is more like I don't want to work for HRB because I have
a college degree in Accounting and I feel like it is a
dead-end. I feel like I am worth more than $7.50/hour...but
since I have no ACTUAL experience, I probably am not---

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I considered working for HRB after the school, but I thought
their TWO YEAR NO-COMPETE clause was ridiculous, plus I think
they overcharge.

One comment about HRB overcharging , the idea in any
successful business is to do the work, slicker, quicker, and
better and CHARGE MORE MONEY.

Many new business fail trying to beat the competion, the
idea is: ........ "to be the competition to beat "

JD E.A.

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Phoebe Roberts, EA wrote:

- quote -

Just to clarify this issue slightly before a lay-person
reads it and decides you're talking about actually earning
3x's what you'd make an hour and ripping off the
world...reality is that the 3x most often ends up working
out, at the end of the day, to the "desired" wage rate per
hour before taxes. What you have factor in is that there is
overhead to be paid for (tax programs, supplies, utilities,
rent, etc.), time that will not be able to be charged for
(CPE time, unsold time, rework time, administrative time,
etc.), and the inevitable deadbeat clients that don't pay.

I would second Phoebe's advice that looking to undercut
Block on price is almost certainly not going to work out
well. But it is a mistake that quite a few people make
starting out, especially when they mistakenly compare a
billing rate with an hourly wage rate.

To profitably undercut Block, you'd generally need to be
able to create a high volume practice and leverage
relatively low paid staff that still has enough skill to
keep you from losing it all in amounts you have to pay to
clients due to damages caused by errors.

These days, I suspect Block doesn't really make major money
off the straight preparation of returns--rather, it's the
"value added" services (like Refund Anticipations Loans,
financial services they can sell, "audit insurance", etc.)
that are Block's real money makers.

--
Ed Zollars, CPA
Phoenix, Arizona

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- quote -

Phoebe, I disagree. No matter if you pay $10 or $10,000, it
is still a piece of software and no software will do what
the human brain can do and that is understand what we want
it to do. All software does (any software) is print out a
pretty return. The higher end may print out more forms then
the lower end, but in the end <G> ) it can all be garbage if
the prepaper has no knowledge.

Helen, EA in PA
Member of The Tax Gang
President, PA Society of Enrolled Agents
Campaigning for NAEA Board of Directors - Looking for YOUR vote

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- quote -

Given the former statement, how can you justify the latter
statement?

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- quote -

Get out your local Yellow Pages and send a one page
letter/resume to all of the local tax prep companies.

--
To reply to me directly, remove the XXX characters from my email address.

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mmb wrote:

- quote -

Many people would advise to actually take H&R's tax course
even if you don't work for them. However it's a little late
this year. (For the record I never did.)

So at this stage of the game, in December, best idea is to
order a copy of Publication 17 from IRS (free), and start
calling around accounting offices, CPA's, EA's, PA's, and
see what entry level job you can get. Even if it's just
processing tax returns. That's a good way to start first
year with no experience. And you might find a job where
you can also do at least some simple returns this coming
year.

then look around local colleges for tax courses, even think
about H&R's tax course next September.

After you've done returns for a year and boned up on tax
law, including maybe local two day tax seminars next fall in
your area, think about going for Enrolled Agent (EA) status.
check with NAEA.org for more information there.

Well, that's a start. what more can I tell you?
reply via email if you wish.

Cheer$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

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mm.bane[at]verizon.net (mmb) wrote:

- quote -

What state are you in? Many states limit the effect of
non-compete clauses. For example in California they are
generally not enforceable at all.

- quote -

Based on what I've heard, a lot of CPA's might be grateful
for temporary help around tax time. Start calling the
larger firms and see what they have to say.

- quote -

The way to promote yourself is to meet or otherwise be
exposed to as many people as you can in a situation in which
they see you as a tax expert.

One thing you might think of doing is to promote a seminar
for people, to show them how to do their own returns.
Charge perhaps $25. Most people there will want to do their
own, but there may well be others there who will find their
situation too complex, but will appreciate your approach and
hire you.

Another thing would be to call all the people you know and
ask them to refer anyone they know who needs help with their
taxes. While it seems silly, most people won't do that
unless you ask.

Good luck.

Stu

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