Two comments:

In the case of Money they never got anywhere close to dominant market share.
So then they tried Microsoft standard plan #2. Buy the competitor. The
government said no to that.

The format for download--protocol actually--is separate from the Money data
file storage format. http://ofx.net is where the current one (for FIs to
Money that is) is documented.

"- Bobb -" <bobb[at]noemail.123> wrote in message
news:%23PuMtWtWJHA.1444[at]TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
- quote -

Re:
- quote -

way. IF they'd seen far enough ahead and charged for it on a subscription
kind of basis from Day 1, the whole marketplace would probably look a lot
different now...."

Agreed, but I think that's their "normal marketing approach" : give it away
at first, get current competitors' customers ( Quicken for example) to
migrate. Once competitor fades away, then uplift.
I don't think we disagree on the 'big picture', it was his bank's direct
download capability. Maybe they NEVER get a support call so don't bother
messing with - dropping support for older versions.

Related, you know when you go from an older version of mny file and import
to the latest version of Money and can't go back ? THAT 'latest file format'
is what I thought the FI had to provide on automatic downloads - to insure
end-user is at a "supported version" of Money. I guess I am wrong ... for
the second, or is it third time,
this year ;-
Have a happy.



"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:B061DB58-80E5-44DC-B5B9-B003AE60AEBB[at]microsoft.com...
- quote -

Some comments inline below.

I've been told that my memory does not serve me well and MS also attempted
to kill direct downloads from M03 but failed. Don't recall all of the
details. Basic dynamics probably remain the same.

"- Bobb -" wrote:

- quote -

Whether or not the banks elect to support downloads directly to Money and
for how long is up to the banks. It's their computers and Internet access
fees and so on. When you enter into some EULA with Microsoft, that has
nothing to do with what the banks do. The model once upon a time was that
Microsoft offered up the feature in Money, the FIs supported the interface,
and then you and the FIs made happy ever after. That changed, coincidentally
about the time banks got a lot less enthusiastic about offering the interface
and Yodlee started getting around that limitation.

- quote -

Depends on the version of Money. Those with better memories can dive in and
tell us which versions of Money got direct downloads killed from the Money
side.

- quote -

IF the bank needed to support the interface, then Microsoft alone couldn't
get you the data. When you read that "Money makes life wonderful by
automgically elminating all the druidgery associated with managing your
finances" how did you think the data was getting into Money? I'm not trying
to be difficult here: but I've always wondered why everybody had such high
expectations for this.

- quote -

Assuming that maintenance of the interface is free and that the
specifications of that interface don't change and assuing the banks don't see
business reasons to kill the direct downloads, then this is surely true from
the bank's POV. Of course, those assumptions prove wrong: customers with
issues call the banks and cost them money answering the phone, the interfaces
supported in various versions of Money drifted over time implying a
maintenance cost on the FIs, and the FIs decided they were giving away their
data and getting nothing for it. The cost of the postage isn't the issue to
them. (How many CC offers do you get a week in the mail? I conclude that they
aren't all that concerned about the cost of postage.) It's that they don't
get to give you their sales pitch.

- quote -

Then along came the other issue: Money customers expected that they could
buy one version of Money and get free services like quotes download and
support and "great new" bug fixes and so forth in perpetuity for their $20.
Microsoft wanted, OTOH, to find ways to "monetize the relationship". So
Microsoft used the only lever they had: sell you the functionality but add a
time limitation. Since Microsoft could tell that the functionality that was
key to most users was downloaded data (many users come here when it breaks
and it's immediately apparent that this is the ONLY reason they use Money)
they decided to make it timeout.

It's not hard to understand why they did it. Does DirecTV let you decode
their signal forever for free because you subscribed for a year? Yes, they
still bombard your house with it. No, if you don't pay for it, you can't keep
using it. Somewhere between Mv1 and M04, Microsoft came to view Money that
way. IF they'd seen far enough ahead and charged for it on a subscription
kind of basis from Day 1, the whole marketplace would probably look a lot
different now. But they didn't and all the purchasers started expecting that
they could buy it once and count on it forever.

See the other threads running on "Is Money Dead?" and similar topics.

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:uCdh4YgWJHA.1328[at]TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
- quote -


You lost me there ... who was / is it up to if not Microsoft ?

- quote -


I didn't view it as a bank issue. I never considered when I first bought
Money that I had a relationship with some third party. That was the surprise
to me. Why would my bank care if I had Money 2001 or Money 2004 , 2007 etc ?
As long as same output format, they save a stamp by me fetching
electronically - no matter if MSFT made another $40 on sale of new version.
Even on my old versions, it's just the " fetch my FI info" that I can no
longer do via the program. Instead I have to go to my FI website - EXPORT
month's history to QFX or OFX, then import that to Money. Still works, just
not automatic. So my bank doesn't care - right ? Yet old versions stopped
working after M2004. Since then I've been at M2006 and autofetch also
stopped, so I download/save/ do it manually.


- quote -

My interpretation: For M04 and above, yes, that put the FIs on notice that
their customers would lose access when the service period ends and that
ending was dictated solely by Microsoft.

For M03 and earlier, banks offering direct access were/are under no
obligation to Microsoft to offer or support Money for any period of time. If
they offer it or stop offering it, Microsoft wasn't in that loop. And we can
see how it worked out. I suspect that's why Microsoft resorted to Yodlee…
They decided along the way that the chief competition with Money (the
application--apparently increasingly viewed by Money customers as only of
value in so far as it could download data and useless for all other
purposes) was the FIs web sites and therefore since they couldn't beat them,
they had to work around them. Yodlee does just that: gets the data, throws
away the ads.

Re. M03 and earlier, I'm sure the FIs and Microsoft put each other in a
tough position. The customers thought Microsoft had made a commitment to
provide the services for eternity. (But it wasn't up to Microsoft.) The FIs
who were actually the ones providing the services never thought for a minute
that they'd agreed to provide services for a week much less eternity. And by
then, they'd all invested in these neato ad delivery mechanisms that Money
enabled their customers to avoid: their web sites. You were upset when
Fidelity and your banks pulled the plug. But that was likely an issue that
Microsoft wasn't directly party to.

One other thing to always remember here: the banks think it's their data not
yours.

"- Bobb -" <bobb[at]noemail.123> wrote in message
news:%23BqamDgWJHA.4184[at]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I'm not trying to give anyone hard time - I just remembered from it
happening to me. I just did a google.groups search and found this post from
that era:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...03+expire+cal#
Mentions 3 years.

Again - I'm not pressing it - just didn't want poster to think other banks
would work too, or flag someone who tells him "you're right we need to turn
that off" at his bank.

I see your point that I'm quoting rules for M2004, and perhaps I read this
incorrectly:
- quote -

won't work.
Since I had been using M2001 and it stopped working in 2004 - due to
Fidelity and my banks no longer interacting with it ( why I had to buy
M2004), I assumed that the bank SHOULD have dropped support for older (pre
2004 )apps once they were 3 years old. With M2004 it went to 2 years .THAT
was my issue at the time: M2001 did not state that online updates would
expire - but it did.
I'm outta here - happy new year


"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:uXFG9oaWJHA.4284[at]TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
- quote -

Maybe I'm still missing your point.

You note this is M04-related language. And M04 is the first version where MS
by design killed all downloads on a date certain. That seems consistent with
this language. You can still view and edit and manually update.

The thread was talking about M03. Mark's point was that any decision to stop
M03 and earlier M version downloads that were direct FI-> customer is coming
from the FI, not Microsoft.

I don't think banks have a license agreement or similar with MS to support
direct downloads--just Microsoft has told them the rules of the road
Microsoft intends to enforce. I suspect that the addition of disabling
downloads on a date certain in M04 was done in advance of Yodlee (M05) where
the continuation of some downloads--those that required the third party
service--would have real incremental cost to Microsoft.

"- Bobb -" <bobb[at]noemail.123> wrote in message
news:OemINqTWJHA.200[at]TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I thought IF banks accepted to interact with M2004 then they had to agree to
this statement:
( I read nothing OPTIONAL in this statement.)

" If your customers elect not to upgrade to the then-current version of
Microsoft Money after the online service period ends, they will still be
able to view and edit their financial data inside Microsoft Money and
manually update their accounts and investment values; however, they will not
be able to automatically update their accounts and investment values."

It always have to be to the "Then current version"

I remember that I had a big ( friendly) go-round with Cal at the time about
it "not being fair" and "not what I had previously agreed to under the T's &
C's of my M2001 agreement".
I'm not picking a fight, just how I perceived it.
Maybe I just happened to have "uncooperative banks".


"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:eXGPqyJWJHA.4148[at]TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
- quote -

2004 disables all downloads. 2003 didn't disable downloads direct from bank
to Money. This thread started talking about M03 and that's what Mark was
referring to when noting that banks doing direct downloads to versions '03
and earlier could support or not support at their discretion.

But given that M04 and above work this way, the confusion is understandable.

"- Bobb -" <bobb[at]noemail.123> wrote in message
news:eSKqWVIWJHA.4024[at]TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
- quote -

It IS Microsoft "forcing the bank" to drop support for downloads.
I went from 2001 to 2004 BECAUSE 2001 stopping allowing me to update.
Prior to 2004 policy is not online, but check out

http://www.microsoft.com/money/fi/osp.mspx
and note how it states " Your customers" ( referring to bank)

Microsoft Money 2004 Online Services Policy

Microsoft Money 2004 Deluxe, Microsoft Money 2004 Premium, and Microsoft
Money 2004 Small Business include up to three (3) years of Online Services
and three (3) years of product support. Your customers will be able to use
the Online Services in the Deluxe, Premium, and Small Business versions of
Microsoft Money 2004 for a period of three (3) years from installation of
the product or until September 1, 2007 (whichever is earlier).

Microsoft Money 2004 Standard includes up to two (2) years of Online
Services and one (1) year of product support. Your customers will be able to
use the Online Services in Microsoft Money 2004 Standard for a period of two
(2) years from installation of the product or until September 1, 2006
(whichever is earlier).

NOTE: Online Services refers to Microsoft Money 2004 features that provide
your customers the ability to perform certain online financial tasks through
the Microsoft Money client software. The ability to perform certain Online
Services (such as online banking) may require that your customers obtain
these services separately from your financial institution, with or without a
fee.

For customers that utilize Online Services, there will be notifications
within Microsoft Money 2004 in advance of the date when Online Services
expire. To continue using Online Services in Microsoft Money, your customers
can upgrade to the then-current version of Microsoft Money to take advantage
of the new and improved features of the most current version.

If your customers elect not to upgrade to the then-current version of
Microsoft Money after the online service period ends, they will still be
able to view and edit their financial data inside Microsoft Money and
manually update their accounts and investment values; however, they will not
be able to automatically update their accounts and investment values.





"Mark" <abcd[at]abcd.com> wrote in message
news:e0szhpZVJHA.3740[at]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
- quote -

It's not Microsoft requesting banks to stop working with older versions.
It's the bank that determines which versions of Money (or Quicken) they will
work with.

-Mark


"- Bobb -" <bobb[at]noemail.123> wrote in message
news:%23mGXdhZVJHA.5496[at]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
- quote -

<scream151[at]gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bcdd7cee-a4ee-4cc3-a972-490b37c2ef44[at]d14g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
I've been wondering as I have read about notices of expiration. My MS
Money 2003 deluxe still downloads from my banks and sends payments
through my banks. Yes, it doesn't work with Vanguard, but I can live
with that, it’s a rollover IRA; I'm not a day trader.

I thought it was supposed to break within 2 or 3 years of its
release. Is it that in 2 to 3 years MS requests banking institutions
to stop working with the software, or is that just a statement of "no
support" from MS corp to encourage biennial purchases?

Thanks.

Shhhhh .. it's probably YOUR bank ... don't bring it to their attention

I've been wondering as I have read about notices of expiration. My MS
Money 2003 deluxe still downloads from my banks and sends payments
through my banks. Yes, it doesn't work with Vanguard, but I can live
with that, it’s a rollover IRA; I'm not a day trader.

I thought it was supposed to break within 2 or 3 years of its
release. Is it that in 2 to 3 years MS requests banking institutions
to stop working with the software, or is that just a statement of "no
support" from MS corp to encourage biennial purchases?

Thanks.