Considering that the resolution to bill corruption is 'nuke the bills', and
that the Advanced Budget is being progressively buried, I seriously doubt
my idea will get past this forum.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL



"Mark Horn" <mark[at]hornclan.com> wrote in message
news:slrnekepbi.bmj.mark[at]home.hornclan.com...
- quote -

On 2006-10-29, Chris Cowles <spam_magnet[at]remove-me-bellsouth.net> wrote:
- quote -

There is a work around to get a scheduled bill out of the budget.
Simply pay it from an account that is not "in budget". I prefer
your solution much better, but considering that the changes are
unlikely, at least there's a work around.

Bill, I appreciate your interest. Details you provided about your use of
the CFF got me using it correctly a couple of years ago. It's a valuable
tool that I hope not to lose

Comments inline.

"William R Wood" <secret[at]???.net> wrote in message
news:OK2Fu81%23GHA.896[at]TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
- quote -

They have made fundamental changes. They're not horrible, IMO. There is
plenty of room for improvement, though.

- quote -

S&S is what is called the "Savings and Spending Budget" in M07. It's based
on a concept proposed by Richard Jenkins in an article published here:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...0Solution.aspx.
The premise is to simplify the work of planning and following a budget. The
groups are explained there. Microsoft tweaked the descriptions slightly and
titled one of them 'Savings and Debt'. I infer that refers to the group
referred to by Jenkins as 'Long-term Savings'.

Since 'Committed expenses' includes "All of our bills -- even such
non-essentials as our satellite TV service" (Jenkins) I interpret that to
include scheduled loans. Because scheduled loans (debt) are not part of
'Savings and Debt', I tweaked that to 'Savings and Debt Reduction' for my
own purposes. I believe debt reduction (paying off consumer debt) is as
important as long-term savings, so I put DRP-managed payments in that
category. The relative importance of the two is debatable.

- quote -

I don't disagree but others prefer that totals created by scheduled
bills/deposits not affect the budget directly. I've read well-stated
opinions that scheduled transactions should provide GUIDANCE as to what the
budgeted amounts should be, but not necessarily be linked directly to the
budget with no option to de-link it.

As an example, suppose you budget a certain annual amount for landscaping.
Later you schedule a payment to a landscaper for the part you're not doing
yourself. That payment is part of the annual budget amount. In Money,
though, that bill goes directly to the budget and the 'other amounts' (or
whatever it's called) has to be the annual amount minus the scheduled
amount. When you schedule the bill, it automatically changes your budget,
unless you edit the 'other amounts' field. If you're unaware of that
effect, your budget gets trashed.

I support the argument that the scheduled bill should not be included, if
not desired. For that purpose, a simple check-box on the bill to "Include
in budget" would work. Make it 'Yes' by default, to model current behavior,
but allow a choice. Considering that Microsoft buried the AB in favor of
the S&S budget, it seems changes like that are unlikely.

- quote -

I concur with your assessment. It means what I wrote but I should correct
myself somewhat. Scheduled transactions still are the basis of the CFF. As
with the AB, you have a choice to include or exclude budget amounts or past
trends. If you use the S&S budget, though, your only choice is past trends.
There is no way to forecast the effect on cash flow of the S&S budget you
create.

- quote -

Yes, they are avoidable in 2007 but I can't predict if they'll be avoidable
in future versions.

What we know currently as the 'Advanced Budget' is basically buried for new
files. If you import a previous version your existing advanced budget (AB)
is still supported. If you poke around in help, you'll find how to get to
it, as well. But, barring those two events, new users have no idea it
existed or that it's available to the persistent.

IIRC, M02 had a concept of 'irregular' expenses, right? If so, that concept
got dropped soon after that version. All expenses now are annualized, then
divided by 12, to arrive at a monthly budget. That's true in the AB, now.
However, scheduled transactions do affect only the months in which they
occur. My biweekly paycheck, for example, occurs 3 times in certain months.
Income and expenses associated with those events are reflected correctly in
the affected months.

- quote -

I'm hardly a financial counselor, but I advise against a plan basing your
wife's financial survival on the existence of certain software
functionality. You can count on the fact that it will NOT exist forever.
What happens when the computer dies?

If she is not confident about adapting to computer/software changes, I
strongly recommend developing a relationship with a living breathing
accountant that can assist her in your absence. Develop that relationship
NOW so both you and she have confidence in their advice and style.

You needn't hand everything over to them. She still can use Money to manage
day-to-day transactions, etc., on her own. But she'll need to be able to
take what she's recorded and planned to the professional for analysis and
advice. Having the data available in computer format probably will make
that easier.

- quote -

I disagree. Debits and Credits will stay essentially the same forever.
Ledger accounting on paper can stay the same forever. But even the old
paper systems evolved over time to simplify recording and reporting, and as
different investment choices and transactions types changed.

The same is and will be true for software, but the evolution will occur
faster. Even if the concepts supported by it do not change, maybe the
computer language used to create it will no longer run on future computers.
Visicalc was a decent spreadsheet in its day and the concepts in it survive
now, but can it run on Windows XP, Vista, Linux, or OS X?

- quote -

2007 is a separate version. If they didn't change it, why produce new
versions? If they don't sell new versions, what source of revenue would pay
for support?

- quote -

You're welcome, and I hope to benefit from your insights, and those of
others.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 06:35:22 -0700, "William R Wood" <secret[at]???.netwrote:

Bill,
I have not played much with CFF & the S&S budget. I do know that if
you start a new Money file, the Advanced budget is not available
unless you search in help and enter a specific command into the
address bar inside Money. If you upgrade a file with an Advanced
budget, you can continue to use it, but can't make a new Advanced
budget.

As to the S&S budget - here is what MS based the S&S budget on:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...0Solution.aspx
or google "60% solution" - first entry is it!

- Ron

- quote -

Chris,

I know this doesn't help you but I am curious and a little worried and hope
you have the time to comment. I have not tried M2007 based on what I read
previously in this forum but your questions are rather startling. It sounds
like MSFT may have gone off the deep end by making fundamental changes to
the budget and CFF tools.

What is S&S? What is the 60% idea? What are the groups: committed,
savings, and debt reduction?

And how can there be varying opinions about including scheduled
bills/deposits in the budget? They are the budget!

What do you mean when you say that, "if you use the S&S budget, CFF is based
entirely on past trends."? Past trends are virtually useless in this regard
since cash flow is a forecast and must take future price increases and other
changes into account.

What you are saying sounds scary - my worst nightmare is being forced to
upgrade Money to a newer version, only to find that MSFT has removed core
features. Are these changes in M2007 avoidable? Can you still prepare and
use a normal budget and cash flow forecast like I do in M2002 or has MSFT
removed these features?

This subject is very serious. I am 62 and now training my wife to use Money
2002 and handle the budget and CFF tools. These tools are essential to our
financial planning and, if I die prematurely, to her financial survival. My
wife is not a computer person or an accountant. She will learn Money and
learn the budget and CFF tools. But, if I'm not around, and MSFT somehow
disables M2002 from downloading our transaction data thereby forcing her to
buy a newer version of Money, she will be totally lost if the budget and CFF
tools are also changed. In fact, she will be lost if they change the
interface in any material way.

An accounting program should stay essentially the same forever. Accounting
principals and money handling concepts have been firmly established for many
generations and they will never change.

I don't have any objection to MSFT trying new accounting methods/concepts to
simplify money management but those experiments should be performed in
separate versions of Money.

Thanks

Bill Wood
Fountain Hills, AZ


"Chris Cowles" <spam_magnet[at]remove-me-bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:uukzcbu%23GHA.5092[at]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I'm working on my 2007 budget and find gaps in the S&S functionality. The
biggest is the total disconnect from scheduled bills. Opinions varying as
to the value of having bills included in the budget by default, but that
does at least assist in forecasting future income and expense, when
creating the budget.

I'm trying to embrace the "60%" idea but what I'm having to do seems to
defeat the purpose. I'm creating a 2007 advanced budget to capture the
effect of scheduled bills, such as paychecks, mortgages, and bills. I
export that into Excel, summarize the amounts, and plan to add that back
into an S&S budget.

My goal is that a limited list of expenses will be allocated specifically.
I hope to sort of ignore the details in the other expense categories, as
long as the larger groups (committed, savings and debt reduction) are on
target. Those details just become noise as long as I'm within the target
range. In that sense, at least, I'll follow the 60% design idea. What I
lose is the ability to forecast cash flow according to what I plan, rather
than simply forecast the effect of past trends.

I've used CFF with success in the past with the advanced budget. Scheduled
bills such as the mortgate and utilities come out of checking. Almost all
other expenses are allocated to a single credit card account. (I guess you
could broadly call those 'retail'.) I schedule an estimated full payment of
the credit card from my checking account.

If my estimated payment is sufficient to pay projected expenses, the
balance forecast for the credit card is relatively flat over time. That's
how I judge the quality of my estimate. If it is, then my standard CFF view
ignores the credit card account and includes my primary checking and
savings accounts. If savings forecasts are correct, the total balance
increases over time. (More slowly that I'd like.)

Unfortunately, if you use the S&S budget, CFF is based entirely on past
trends. You cannot forecast the effect of your S&S plan. Lacking that, I
have few means of validating my plans in a manner that I'm comfortable
with.

Is anyone playing with this?
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL