No.

Old copy of the correct Money version may exist. You can not prove a
negative except to show it to be impossible.
Date / time can be changed by changing computer date as well as
utility programs eg
http://www.febooti.com/products/filetweak/
Read Only attribute is easy to change via standard MS commands.

arthur
senior systems analyst and programmer - retired
==

On 13 Apr 2006 05:57:29 -0700, "Richard"
<richard.google[at]devenezia.com> wrote:
- quote -

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:01:45 -0700, "harrelsonesq"
<harrelsonesq2[at]yahoo.com> wrote:

- quote -



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What if it was an EFT transaction? Or an e-bill?

"Dr. Woodard" <DrWoodardOnDS[at]hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vs524296vp4r1h8glmvkvrr7lfkjuc37ja[at]4ax.com...
- quote -

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:37:57 -0700, "harrelsonesq"
<harrelsonesq2[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

transaction this was based on? Basic accounting dictates that
every transaction originates from a paper based transaction.

Nothing in Money/Quicken/Quickbooks/etc. will ever replace that
peace of paper reporting that original transaction. You need that
original peace of paper to prove the transaction occurred. An entry
in money does not prove the transaction occurred.

BTW, human error occurs in data entry.




- quote -

of transaction.....cancelled check....bank statement.....etc.

If you don't have them you'll neeed a forensic acountant to help.

A money file will not be an acceptable alternative in many cases.


- quote -

money file 14 meg large covering a number of years and thousands
of transactions was not altered.

BTW, just entering a $10,000 deposit in money doesn't make it so.
You still need prooof like a deposit slip/bank statement/etc.

The OP really needs to talk to a lawyer and contact a forensic
accountant.

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Like this:

I am showing you the document that has been marked for identification as
Exhibit A. Do you recognize this? Yes.

What is it? A printout of transactions from my MS Money data file.

How do you know that? I entered the data myself.

I am showing you the fourth row down from the top of the printout. What is
the date? September 4, 1995.

Did you enter that transaction in 1995? Yes.

How do you know that? Because I have had occasion to review these
transactions periodically since then, and they have not changed since they
were entered.

If someone had used your computer and altered these transactions, would you
be able to tell? Yes. These are my own data.

So is this printout an accurate record of your transactions as they existed
in 1995? Yes.

Defendant moves to admit the document marked for identification as Exhibit
A.

Very well. Admitted as Defendant's "A".
-------------------
What you are overlooking is that sworn testimony is evidence -- not just
somebody talking. It happens every time a cop says "Yes, that is the gun I
took away from the suspect." Could it be a drop gun? Yes. Could a cop have
gone in the vault and switched guns? Yes. That's why we have juries.

- quote -

Copies of anything are the same as originals, as long as someone can testify
that they are identical copies.

Susan

In microsoft.public.money, Dr. Woodard wrote:

- quote -

Yes.

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:14:51 -0500, Cal Learner-- MVP
<via_newsgroup[at]please.tnx> wrote:
- quote -

go into a situation like this and dig up missing
financial where the most if not all the information is
non existant in any capacity. They're called forensic
accountants.


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In microsoft.public.money, Paul Pedersen wrote:

- quote -

I would not make ANY changes including changing attributes. Make
copies and work with the copies.

(I think he said it was already read-only)

Make sure you mark the file read-only. Also, work with a copy of course.

If you just open it, you run the risk of ten years of automatic deposits and
withdrawals all being entered at once.


"Richard" <richard.google[at]devenezia.com> wrote in message
news:1144933049.880200.263060[at]z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

In microsoft.public.money, Dr. Woodard wrote:

- quote -

:-) <chuckle

Let me bottom line this for you:

what you need is a forensic accountant.

Ultimately it will be alot more expensive to
get into the computer forensics than
it would be to hire straight out
a forensic accountant to chase down the
required information.

If you have a CPA ask him if he does
Forensic accounting or can recommend
someone.

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On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:02:29 -0700, "harrelsonesq"
<harrelsonesq2[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

checks, statements, etc. Going into a file for a computer program
raises subsidiary question. (For example how do we know the file
wasn't tamepered with? Even if you had a guard watching the computer
24/7 since the file was created how do you know the file wasn't
changed by being accessed on line, at the shop when the computer was
in for repair, or through a virus/trojan horse?)

I also would highly doubt you could verify chain of custody from the
date the file was created in 1995 to today 2006. That is alot of
years someone could access the file while the person was
at work, etc.

And then you have the issue of other people using the family computer.

Also files that got corrupted and had to be replaced with backups.

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In microsoft.public.money, Cal Learner-- MVP wrote:

- quote -

Make that Richard might be....

In microsoft.public.money, harrelsonesq wrote:

- quote -

I suspect that detritus exists. It would take specialize expertise
to do such analysis. I guess you might be looking for expert witness
leads. I don't have that expertise, but I suspect it exists. The
fear of such analysis being used to identify a fake should be a
useful deterrent too.

- quote -

There could be some easy to look for stuff. You could look for
quotes newer than the date of the file. You can sort registers by
order of entry. And that version mn* extension produced during
conversion could pick up the really crude mistake of making the
back-dated file with a version newer than was available on the date.


- quote -

Good analogy.

- quote -

I *am* a lawyer, although of course I cannot give legal advice in a
jurisdiction in which I am not licensed -- like this one. So this isn't
legal advice. And I hardly ever get to go on TV. dammit.

I think the chain-of-custody method is the most likely -- the person who
created the file can authenticate it. OTOH, if the credibility of the
creator is in question, that might not be very useful.

Your best shot is recovering metadata, if Money leaves retrievable detritus.
Somehow, from my experience with the program, and this forum, I doubt that
MS includes routines to remove it. Of course, even if they did, someone
could get around that limitation easily by changing the computer clock
before creating the data in the first place..

In the end, it still comes down to human credibility, doesn't it?

And discovery of electronic data is so much more important to the modern
world than paper records that the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are
poised to cover it. Paper copies of checks and bank statements? Very
unlikely to exist, or to be useful if they do. Also very easy to fake.

The IRS has accepted evidence in the form of electronic records kept in
personal finance programs for quite some time now. "Data compilations" have
been covered in the Federal Rules of Evidence for years as well..

I'm not an expert in e-law, but authentication of e-records is probably the
same as authentication of paper, i.e., asking the person who did the
recording, with the odd questioned documents examiner or fiber-content [or
code] analysis thrown in when appropriate. I would find one of those teenage
hackers who went straight at 21, for that.

Again, the obligatory disclaimer: This is not legal advice, and should not
be construed as such. Legal questions can only be answered by a qualified
attorney licensed to practice in your jurisdiction.

HTH,

Susan M. Harrelson
Las Vegas, NV


"Dr. Woodard" <DrWoodardOnDS[at]hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h4ps3291uiqtnvl09de0uc3etinl90m5l8[at]4ax.com...
- quote -

I wasn't worried that it was forward compatible. I was curious if you knew
what contemporaneous version it was originally made by. See Cal's post.

"Richard" <richard.google[at]devenezia.com> wrote in message
news:1144939584.867035.58060[at]j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

On 13 Apr 2006 05:57:29 -0700, "Richard"
<richard.google[at]devenezia.com> wrote:

- quote -

one. The money file itself generall won't be used except for
investigative purposes.

I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but usually they don't
use the file from a computer program. Rather the evidence
is based on Bank Statements, Cashed Checks, etc. that can be
viewed as "hard" evidence. I would tend to doubt the Money
file itself would be admissable.

The mid 90s......wouldn't statute of limitations have
passed on this?


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In microsoft.public.money, Richard wrote:

- quote -

During that conversion, a file with *.mn? filename is saved. What is
that third character on the filename extension (the digit following
"mn")?

The original file (is read-only) and can be opened with a current
version of MSM, but it goes through a conversion process. When saved
the new file is about 5x larger filesize than the original.

What version can you open it with?

Beyond that, probably not. I'd think the best bet would be to prove that an
exact copy exists that was made in that time period and was then sealed
away. Or maybe hardcopy reports that can be shown to have been locked up
since that period. Beyond that, I'd think that it would be easy to call into
question whether A file was create then or now.

"Richard" <richard.google[at]devenezia.com> wrote in message
news:1144933049.880200.263060[at]z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
- quote -