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#11
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| WOW, thanks for all the feedback - I guess that's what I DIDN'T know. To ME, $25M would justify the output - but it appears not to. Bobb "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in message news:uLhV1ggUGHA.4892[at]TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... - quote - > One comment inline. > "- Bobb -" <bobb[at]netscape.net> wrote in message > news:uOu0NjfUGHA.5568[at]TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... > > I think that if they DID " a hugely compelling, feature rich, version that > > added even half the things on your wish list, and then went and priced it > > to hit a $109 price point at retail" , they'd sell quite a bit. I think > > THAT's the market where the $$$ is. You're right - 100% of a market in > > which people want to spend $10 per app isn't worth capturing, BUT 50% of > > the market where people WILL pay is definitely worth chasing. Put in > > "what-if' scenarios, much better reporting ,etc. Consider Quickbooks - > > users definitely think the price is worth it - whether it's $200 or $799 > > for a 4 user license. They've reached the point where (within reason) > > price doesn't matter. > Well, maybe two comments: I suspect the price elasticity of demand for > QuickBooks is much lower than for the personal product. If Microsoft did a > suitable competitor they could sell it for half that, drag Intuit down to > the same point, and not change the aggregate demand all that much. If you > are running a small business, accounting is not optional. So, I think it's > a bad comparison. > As to how many $109 copies of "Money Advanced" they could sell, my time in > the newsgroup and years as a computer user/geek/engineer convinces me that > **maybe** 1/3 of the users who get here would really appreciate/use greatly > increased capability/functionality. 2/3 are overwhelmed by what's there > today. My assumption is that people who get here are, by virtue of getting > here, already in the top 75th percentile or better of user-dom. So, maybe > 1/3 of 25% is your best case of the user population who are actually > receptive to and/or eager for such a version. > I don't know how many Money users there are, but I have read estimates that > maybe 20% or less of households with computers are actually using computers > to "manage personal finances". Let's say that's 20% of 100 million. Let's > say that half of those, in turn, "manage personal finances" using Quicken or > Money. Now we are at 10 million households using Q or M. Let's assume that > the market is 70% Q and 30% M (I've read numbers like that). Now we are down > to 3 million households using Money. Let's assume that every one of my 1/3 > of 25% of those race right out and buy "Money Advanced". That's 250,000 > copies. > If $100 of the $109 goes straight to the bottom line. that's $25M. Software > Development costs on the order of $250/developer hour (really round numbers; > you have to pay them, pay their benefits, put a roof over their heads, > provide servers for their code, etc). That's enough to buy on the > order--ignoring support costs and tech writers and advertising and so > forth--of 100,000 hours. That's on the order of 50 developers for a year. > I guess where I'm going with this is that I've diced and sliced this enough > times in my head that I understand why they are where they are. The don't > develop "Money Advanced" because there just isn't a business case to do so. > Sad, I agree. |
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#10
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| One comment inline. "- Bobb -" <bobb[at]netscape.net> wrote in message news:uOu0NjfUGHA.5568[at]TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... - quote - > I think that if they DID " a hugely compelling, feature rich, version that
Well, maybe two comments: I suspect the price elasticity of demand for> added even half the things on your wish list, and then went and priced it > to hit a $109 price point at retail" , they'd sell quite a bit. I think > THAT's the market where the $$$ is. You're right - 100% of a market in > which people want to spend $10 per app isn't worth capturing, BUT 50% of > the market where people WILL pay is definitely worth chasing. Put in > "what-if' scenarios, much better reporting ,etc. Consider Quickbooks - > users definitely think the price is worth it - whether it's $200 or $799 > for a 4 user license. They've reached the point where (within reason) > price doesn't matter. QuickBooks is much lower than for the personal product. If Microsoft did a suitable competitor they could sell it for half that, drag Intuit down to the same point, and not change the aggregate demand all that much. If you are running a small business, accounting is not optional. So, I think it's a bad comparison. As to how many $109 copies of "Money Advanced" they could sell, my time in the newsgroup and years as a computer user/geek/engineer convinces me that **maybe** 1/3 of the users who get here would really appreciate/use greatly increased capability/functionality. 2/3 are overwhelmed by what's there today. My assumption is that people who get here are, by virtue of getting here, already in the top 75th percentile or better of user-dom. So, maybe 1/3 of 25% is your best case of the user population who are actually receptive to and/or eager for such a version. I don't know how many Money users there are, but I have read estimates that maybe 20% or less of households with computers are actually using computers to "manage personal finances". Let's say that's 20% of 100 million. Let's say that half of those, in turn, "manage personal finances" using Quicken or Money. Now we are at 10 million households using Q or M. Let's assume that the market is 70% Q and 30% M (I've read numbers like that). Now we are down to 3 million households using Money. Let's assume that every one of my 1/3 of 25% of those race right out and buy "Money Advanced". That's 250,000 copies. If $100 of the $109 goes straight to the bottom line. that's $25M. Software Development costs on the order of $250/developer hour (really round numbers; you have to pay them, pay their benefits, put a roof over their heads, provide servers for their code, etc). That's enough to buy on the order--ignoring support costs and tech writers and advertising and so forth--of 100,000 hours. That's on the order of 50 developers for a year. I guess where I'm going with this is that I've diced and sliced this enough times in my head that I understand why they are where they are. The don't develop "Money Advanced" because there just isn't a business case to do so. Sad, I agree. |
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#9
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| Comments inline. "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in message news:eQ2decdUGHA.5108[at]TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... - quote - > > > But they probably haven't made dime #1 on the application model they
I never considered that - I've never seen an OEM Money.> have today. > > You don't think so ? - at $30 - $99 a copy (choice of version) ? > > I think what they have was their version of Quicken. > > They wanted to buy Intuit and it fell through - so they still have Money. > > They haven't put much $$ into it since the buyout offer. > No, I don't think so. > First, they don't sell very many copies at $90 retail and, of those, they > don't get the bulk of the $90 for any copy sold at retail by a third party. > (Many of us have never paid more than $20 at retail.) Out of what they > gross, they have to cover the cost of goods sold. The net then has to cover > development, marketing, and--worst--support. Simple math with some knowledge > of the cost of software development reveals that even one support call per > license will put them upside down. Worse, most of the copies they "sell" are > really the OEM licenses that they probabaly get maybe a few dollars for. > Sure, these licenses incur (or are supposed to) no support costs and next to > no cost of goods sold. But at $2 or $3 per, you've gotta sell a tens of > millions of these before you can afford to write much software. On OEM PC's , I've only ever seen Quicken. I always build my PC and I / my family/friends (with OEM Quicken) have bought Money at retail. - quote - > > > If they don't go to the services subscription model, they may just
I think that if they DID " a hugely compelling, feature rich, version that added even half the things on your wish list, and then> completely pull the plug on Money. They have already done so > > > in most of the rest of the markets in the world they ever targeted with > Money. > > > If I had a reason to buy M2006 because it was BETTER, I would do so. > Really. For most people I know, the cost is not the reason > > for not upgrading - it's the lack of the new version " solving a problem". > You'll get no argument about your premise as to why they don't upgrade it. > But surely you see the vicious circle here: We don't buy the cheap > non-upgrade, they don't make money; they don't make money, they can't make a > business case for plowing money into more compelling upgrades. > This is especially true when they see clearly that the proportion of users > who want the "good" upgrades is small and the proportion of "might be users" > who want dumbing down, or will cost them exponentially more in support of > the fancier features, is large. > And you can say cost is not the reason people don't upgrade, but I'll bet a > fiver that if they did a hugely compelling, feature rich, version that added > even half the things on my wish list, and then went and priced it to hit a > $109 price point at retail, they'd get cruicified in the magazine reviews, > the product would sell very few copies, and the theft rate would go up > astronomically. They survey this stuff. They understand that price > elasticity of demand for software targeted at home users is almost vertical. > So we get dumbing-down, no new features that make the product more powerful, > and ever more ads and sponsored links. went and priced it to hit a $109 price point at retail" , they'd sell quite a bit. I think THAT's the market where the $$$ is. You're right - 100% of a market in which people want to spend $10 per app isn't worth capturing, BUT 50% of the market where people WILL pay is definitely worth chasing. Put in "what-if' scenarios, much better reporting ,etc. Consider Quickbooks - users definitely think the price is worth it - whether it's $200 or $799 for a 4 user license. They've reached the point where (within reason) price doesn't matter. - quote - > > > > If you'd take Ellison over Gates, more power to you. I wouldn't. Not
waited for the results of our job to print out on the teleprinter.> that either are gems.... > > > > True, I'd just do it since Ellison was the one with the idea ( for the > NetPC) not Gates. > Don't think for a milli-moment that the NetPC is a "consumer" or "user" > friendly idea. They just want to put a meter on your keyboard and collect a > fee per the keystroke. They want to revert to a "billable unit of computing" model that existed when we handed punch cards through a window to an operator and Exactly - and the printout is in a queue so - pick it up tomorrow. Your PC then becomes a VT100. I didn't say that I LIKED either option - just that I prefer to pay the person with the idea. Ellison's idea was to make the internet available for cheap money to the masses ( and make $$ being an ISP) Microsoft's view would NOT be "help the masses" - just to get the business from Oracle. Smoking lamp is now out. |
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#8
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| I agree with you that at the price I paid, net of rebate, they did not make much, if any, money. However, they are also selling advertising and I have no idea of that revenue stream from Mny. The reason de existance IMO. There is a booklet manual in the CD box never browsed. There were advertising offers in the box. Box and ads went to the trash. My only reason for moving from 03 to 06 was the threat of 03 ceasing to support auto financial update this year and the price less the rebate was bargain basement. a == On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:46:12 -0700, "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote: - quote - > No, I don't think so. |
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#7
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| Comments inline. "- Bobb -" <bobb[at]netscape.net> wrote in message news:uLcsELcUGHA.736[at]TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... - quote - > > But they probably haven't made dime #1 on the application model they
No, I don't think so.have today. > You don't think so ? - at $30 - $99 a copy (choice of version) ? > I think what they have was their version of Quicken. > They wanted to buy Intuit and it fell through - so they still have Money. > They haven't put much $$ into it since the buyout offer. First, they don't sell very many copies at $90 retail and, of those, they don't get the bulk of the $90 for any copy sold at retail by a third party. (Many of us have never paid more than $20 at retail.) Out of what they gross, they have to cover the cost of goods sold. The net then has to cover development, marketing, and--worst--support. Simple math with some knowledge of the cost of software development reveals that even one support call per license will put them upside down. Worse, most of the copies they "sell" are really the OEM licenses that they probabaly get maybe a few dollars for. Sure, these licenses incur (or are supposed to) no support costs and next to no cost of goods sold. But at $2 or $3 per, you've gotta sell a tens of millions of these before you can afford to write much software. So, for years they've been looking for other ways to get some revenue. That's why they add all the ads and links to things they can get a cut of. Yes, Money was their hope to do what Intuit was doing. Yes, they tried but failed to buy Intuit. And that's one of the reasons we see both of them today as basically selling the applicaitons for just slightly more than free. And that's why both of them are trying to leverage their access to your eyeballs and your mouse and your financial data into ever more ways to make money as a function of your being there, not as a function of selling you a CD in a box. - quote - > > If they don't go to the services subscription model, they may just
You'll get no argument about your premise as to why they don't upgrade it.completely pull the plug on Money. They have already done so > > in most of the rest of the markets in the world they ever targeted with Money. > Even so, I would think that the US market can justify the product - considering what they DON'T spend providing support on it. > It comes out - if you don't like it - too bad. I think it doesn't sell THAT well because the changes do not justify buying it > every year. In fact often I like " the previous year's version ". I still have a PC with M2001 on it because I like the look/feel > of it rather than the later versions on my newer PC's. > If I had a reason to buy M2006 because it was BETTER, I would do so. Really. For most people I know, the cost is not the reason > for not upgrading - it's the lack of the new version " solving a problem". But surely you see the vicious circle here: We don't buy the cheap non-upgrade, they don't make money; they don't make money, they can't make a business case for plowing money into more compelling upgrades. This is especially true when they see clearly that the proportion of users who want the "good" upgrades is small and the proportion of "might be users" who want dumbing down, or will cost them exponentially more in support of the fancier features, is large. And you can say cost is not the reason people don't upgrade, but I'll bet a fiver that if they did a hugely compelling, feature rich, version that added even half the things on my wish list, and then went and priced it to hit a $109 price point at retail, they'd get cruicified in the magazine reviews, the product would sell very few copies, and the theft rate would go up astronomically. They survey this stuff. They understand that price elasticity of demand for software targeted at home users is almost vertical. So we get dumbing-down, no new features that make the product more powerful, and ever more ads and sponsored links. - quote - > > If you'd take Ellison over Gates, more power to you. I wouldn't. Not that either are gems.... > > True, I'd just do it since Ellison was the one with the idea ( for the NetPC) not Gates. Don't think for a milli-moment that the NetPC is a "consumer" or "user" friendly idea. They just want to put a meter on your keyboard and collect a fee per the keystroke. Then they don't have to do much of ANYTHING but sit back and cash your checks. Many elements of Gates' model to this point have amounted to or enabled user empowerment. Ellison--and many of Gates' current protégés--don't want this at all. They just want more of your money for doing less. They want to revert to a "billable unit of computing" model that existed when we handed punch cards through a window to an operator and waited for the results of our job to print out on the teleprinter. |
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#6
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| "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in message news:OxJI4IVUGHA.1444[at]TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl... - quote - > snipped<
You don't think so ? - at $30 - $99 a copy (choice of version) ?> But they probably haven't made dime #1 on the application model they have today. I think what they have was their version of Quicken. They wanted to buy Intuit and it fell through - so they still have Money. They haven't put much $$ into it since the buyout offer. - quote - > If they don't go to the services subscription model, they may just completely pull the plug on Money. They have already done so
Even so, I would think that the US market can justify the product - considering what they DON'T spend providing support on it.> in most of the rest of the markets in the world they ever targeted with Money. It comes out - if you don't like it - too bad. I think it doesn't sell THAT well because the changes do not justify buying it every year. In fact often I like " the previous year's version ". I still have a PC with M2001 on it because I like the look/feel of it rather than the later versions on my newer PC's. If I had a reason to buy M2006 because it was BETTER, I would do so. Really. For most people I know, the cost is not the reason for not upgrading - it's the lack of the new version " solving a problem". - quote - > If you'd take Ellison over Gates, more power to you. I wouldn't. Not that either are gems....
True, I'd just do it since Ellison was the one with the idea ( for the NetPC) not Gates. It always bothered me that Gates makesall the money from copying others ideas and having a marketing gorilla that can stomp out any potential competitor. I know it doesn't matter now that I bought Lotus 1-2-3 vs Excel or Wordperfect rather than Word, but I tried to reward 'the guy who had the idea'. That's a whole ' nother topic ... not today. Bobb - quote - > "- Bobb -" <bobb[at]netscape.net> wrote in message news:u6K$RWUUGHA.4952[at]TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... > > You mean - you think M2006 + would only be available online ? > > Don't you think they'd open themselves up to ... competition from anyone with a pc/ dumb terminal. > > > Along that line: > > I was reading last year or two about MS' big business plan is to get folks online and a subscription. > > ( Like Oracle proposed a few years ago with NetPC) Do you think / know that that is in fact their plan ? > > That's how things USED to be. Then PC's came along and did away with dumb terminals / workstations. > > I can't see people doing so , having once had local control of apps (like now). Get on a plane and have no apps ? For > > instance, I've been complaining that they can't update Money online quotes consistently - nevermind depending on them for my > > entire application. > > > Given only a choice of paying $5 to Oracle or $5 to Microsoft - I'd go with Oracle. |
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#5
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| Not yet in India? Shame shame. The question then is what will Q do? Were it not for options I would not have switched and would certainly move back rather than the alternative you envision. I can live without the nano brain MS options support. My only excuse for Mny is the personal financial bundling it provides ... nothing else. I can and do keep a monthly spread sheet of net worth so that would suffice. a == On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:55:15 -0700, "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote: - quote - > service subscription model. Surely an online service would cost them > less--since many or most support hassles would go away--and better enable > them to "monetize the relationship" with ever more ads and targeted links |
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#4
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| They have been making lots of noises for a long time about converting to a service subscription model. Surely an online service would cost them less--since many or most support hassles would go away--and better enable them to "monetize the relationship" with ever more ads and targeted links based on your data. The reason I think M08 would be a likely target is that they have been on a three version major cycle for some time now. Only the kind of resistance you note will prevent it. But they probably haven't made dime #1 on the application model they have today. If they don't go to the services subscription model, they may just completely pull the plug on Money. They have already done so in most of the rest of the markets in the world they ever targeted with Money. If you'd take Ellison over Gates, more power to you. I wouldn't. Not that either are gems.... "- Bobb -" <bobb[at]netscape.net> wrote in message news:u6K$RWUUGHA.4952[at]TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... - quote - > You mean - you think M2006 + would only be available online ? > Don't you think they'd open themselves up to ... competition from anyone > with a pc/ dumb terminal. > Along that line: > I was reading last year or two about MS' big business plan is to get folks > online and a subscription. > ( Like Oracle proposed a few years ago with NetPC) Do you think / know > that that is in fact their plan ? > That's how things USED to be. Then PC's came along and did away with dumb > terminals / workstations. > I can't see people doing so , having once had local control of apps (like > now). Get on a plane and have no apps ? For instance, I've been > complaining that they can't update Money online quotes consistently - > nevermind depending on them for my entire application. > Given only a choice of paying $5 to Oracle or $5 to Microsoft - I'd go > with Oracle. |
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#3
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| I know the CD is the cheapest part of the package so why not sell it in a blister pack and save the printing cost of the box and book. They are getting as marketing stupid as AOL. a == On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:44:11 -0700, "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote: - quote - > 07 MAY be better. It may also be the last locally installed Money > application. |
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#2
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| Dick, You mean - you think M2006 + would only be available online ? Don't you think they'd open themselves up to ... competition from anyone with a pc/ dumb terminal. Along that line: I was reading last year or two about MS' big business plan is to get folks online and a subscription. ( Like Oracle proposed a few years ago with NetPC) Do you think / know that that is in fact their plan ? That's how things USED to be. Then PC's came along and did away with dumb terminals / workstations. I can't see people doing so , having once had local control of apps (like now). Get on a plane and have no apps ? For instance, I've been complaining that they can't update Money online quotes consistently - nevermind depending on them for my entire application. Given only a choice of paying $5 to Oracle or $5 to Microsoft - I'd go with Oracle. bobb "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in message news:e2KZw$TUGHA.4340[at]TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... - quote - > 07 MAY be better. It may also be the last locally installed Money application - quote - > "Mcrutcher" <Mcrutcher[at]discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:61B91FF4-7BCF-42E4-AA29-D2BA009F29A9[at]microsoft.com... > > I have M2004 and love it. I purchased online a copy of M2006 (haven't > > received it yet). I then downloaded the trial version of M2006. Well, can't > > say that I'm impressed. M2006 is sooooooo slow. I also thought that I would > > have more connectivity with some of my storebrand credit cards, but I now > > realize that I have to use Moneycentral for that to work. Well, I don't want > > my information stored online in one place like that. So, I reverted > > successfully back to M2004 and uninstalled the trial M2006. My question is > > this - sometime in 2007 Microsoft will stop supporting M2004 and I will no > > longer have online updates with my banks (I think). As I understand it, I > > will have to upgrade at that time to continue support. My question is will I > > have to upgrade to the newest version at that time, or if I decided to keep > > the M2006 hardcopy when I receive it, can I just install/upgrade to that > > version when my M2004 support expires in 2007? If not, then I plan to > > return the M2006 hardcopy. > > > On a related note - I actually did try the Moneycentral online storage for > > about 10 minutes and then decided I'd rather not have my information on MS's > > servers. I checked the box in M2006 to stop using online > > storage/Moneycentral, and then disabled Passport (all before reverting back > > to M2004), but my information is still on the Moneycentral website when I > > checked. How can I delete it from there? > > > Thanks a bunch to anyone who replies. |
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#1
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| Yeh but 06 will stop auto institutions download in 2 years from? Until? Question is does he lose some time by not using it until the 04 stops. You understand legalese? 12 credits worth was no help to me. a == On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:44:11 -0700, "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote: - quote - > 07 MAY be better. It may also be the last locally installed Money > application. > 06 will also work when 04 times out. See its EULA file for the details. |
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| 07 MAY be better. It may also be the last locally installed Money application. 06 will also work when 04 times out. See its EULA file for the details. See also http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?q=174 and http://umpmfaq.info/Money2006.htm. "Mcrutcher" <Mcrutcher[at]discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:61B91FF4-7BCF-42E4-AA29-D2BA009F29A9[at]microsoft.com... - quote - > I have M2004 and love it. I purchased online a copy of M2006 (haven't > received it yet). I then downloaded the trial version of M2006. Well, > can't > say that I'm impressed. M2006 is sooooooo slow. I also thought that I > would > have more connectivity with some of my storebrand credit cards, but I now > realize that I have to use Moneycentral for that to work. Well, I don't > want > my information stored online in one place like that. So, I reverted > successfully back to M2004 and uninstalled the trial M2006. My question > is > this - sometime in 2007 Microsoft will stop supporting M2004 and I will no > longer have online updates with my banks (I think). As I understand it, I > will have to upgrade at that time to continue support. My question is > will I > have to upgrade to the newest version at that time, or if I decided to > keep > the M2006 hardcopy when I receive it, can I just install/upgrade to that > version when my M2004 support expires in 2007? If not, then I plan to > return the M2006 hardcopy. > On a related note - I actually did try the Moneycentral online storage for > about 10 minutes and then decided I'd rather not have my information on > MS's > servers. I checked the box in M2006 to stop using online > storage/Moneycentral, and then disabled Passport (all before reverting > back > to M2004), but my information is still on the Moneycentral website when I > checked. How can I delete it from there? > Thanks a bunch to anyone who replies. |
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#-1
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| I have M2004 and love it. I purchased online a copy of M2006 (haven't received it yet). I then downloaded the trial version of M2006. Well, can't say that I'm impressed. M2006 is sooooooo slow. I also thought that I would have more connectivity with some of my storebrand credit cards, but I now realize that I have to use Moneycentral for that to work. Well, I don't want my information stored online in one place like that. So, I reverted successfully back to M2004 and uninstalled the trial M2006. My question is this - sometime in 2007 Microsoft will stop supporting M2004 and I will no longer have online updates with my banks (I think). As I understand it, I will have to upgrade at that time to continue support. My question is will I have to upgrade to the newest version at that time, or if I decided to keep the M2006 hardcopy when I receive it, can I just install/upgrade to that version when my M2004 support expires in 2007? If not, then I plan to return the M2006 hardcopy. On a related note - I actually did try the Moneycentral online storage for about 10 minutes and then decided I'd rather not have my information on MS's servers. I checked the box in M2006 to stop using online storage/Moneycentral, and then disabled Passport (all before reverting back to M2004), but my information is still on the Moneycentral website when I checked. How can I delete it from there? Thanks a bunch to anyone who replies. |
| Tags |
| copy, keeping, m2004, m2006, retain |
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