"Howie" <nothere[at]this.time> wrote in message
news:e231s197rfh9dpdvctk1blt8755i9vka6r[at]4ax.com...
- quote -

No, I don't think it's unreasonable. In fact, it would be nice.

I also don't think it UNreasonable for them NOT to, either. (We're speaking
in multiple negatives, here.) They sell software. It's how they make their
money. You make a choice to purchase it, or not. The limitations of the
license are printed on the outside of the box, IIRC.

On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:50:18 -0500, "Chris Cowles" <NoSpam[at]For.mewrote:

- quote -

Which I do for a couple of holdings which MS$ periodically botches...

So you also feel it unreasonable for the MS$ program to offer this
ability (as the versions did up until a couple of years ago) beyond a
two-year period without the program owner anteing up an additional $25
or more?


--Howie

"Howie" <nothere[at]this.time> wrote in message
news:5140s1dhcr29nbg7s147nsuauavtfs02hp[at]4ax.com...
- quote -

And you are free to enter it by hand.

On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 08:11:12 -0000, "Bob Peel, MVP" <bob_peel[at]NO
SPAM.kiandra.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

- quote -

I don't see how someone could think downloading stock quote
information for only two years (without paying more money) is
reasonable given the fact this data is distributed freely.


--Howie

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:u2OSWS5EGHA.2036[at]TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
- quote -

All: I don't have time to respond right now, but let's move this thread, OK?
It's OT from the original question.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

I'm not sure why you say cash flow doesn't work. I find it works quite well.
I watch it very closely to make sure that problems do not creep into it. It
is the single most important feature of Money to me. I use FCF (Forecast
Cash Flow) to assure that my available cash is deployed to the best use (can
I move $x to the MMF for more than a month, given the large bill due April
17 and the Discover bill due in February?) and to assure that positive cash
flow is saved, not spent, and put to productive use at the earliest possible
moment, regardless of what I could be spending it on. Cash Flow is a forward
looking tool.

I use BP rarely, but I do refer to it from time to time. I find its limited
capabilities very annoying. (First, it needs to allow decoupling of
scheduled activity from budget. As I've of ten said here, just because
something is scheduled doesn't mean it was something that you would have
budgeted for. Second, it's habit off annualizing everything you tell it is
maddening. I *know* my utilities bills in the winter will be a lot higher
than in the summer. Why make me see this as a variance 8 or 9 months of the
year? Third, it doesn't know how to do anything at all fancy like figure out
how to cap OASDI at the $94,600 income number.) It is, largely, a rearward
looking tool. I use it to confirm that my income and expenses remain within
the separate projections and/or allowances in the budget. But, since I
collect lots of transaction data in a pretty hands-on way, it rarely tells
me anything I didn't already know. I surely didn't need it during 2005 to
figure out that my Automobile:Gasoline spending was way off-scale.

I'd say that the toolset Money provides enables and encourages "Best
Practices". As to the real world, sure, there are lots of people that have
to regulate everything in life according to their credit card payments.
(Probably why financial aid applications ask about "credit card
payments"--perhaps this is a synonym for "financial responsibility index"
rather than a question trying to identify financial need.) For them, Money
is just too late. DRP is all Money offers them. But BP and FCF might help
them get their act together going forward.

To your example of the house payment: FCF lets you see what the movement of
money does to your free cash. Budget lets you understand the components of
this without regard to accounts. The interest expense is just that--it's an
expense you elected to incur to have something now rather than later. The
taxes and insurance--that underlie the escrow--are taxes and insurance. The
fact that they have this monthly cash flow to a different account us just a
diversion. Once you see this, maybe next time you will refuse the escrow and
decide to manage this money yourself--and get the benefit from the cash flow
rather than letting the bank have it. Of course the principal doesn't
transfer to your asset account. The value of the asset and the remaining
liability are utterly decoupled.

When the real estate market crashes Real Soon Now, all of these folks with
100% of "value" interest only mortgages on their McMansions (with taxes and
insurance out the gazoo besides) will have a much better appreciation of how
all of this really works. Lots of these same people now find themselves
shocked, shocked, that the banks are upping minimum monthly payments on
their credit card debt. ("After all, I was making the payments, what's the
problem?" Well, to begin with, the "payments" barely covered the new
interest expense each month.) If they'd used BP before they got in this
situation, they might have had a better understanding what they were getting
themselves into. Since they didn't their only hope will be careful
management going forward using FCF to keep from running up on the rocks in
any given month. DRP would be wise to help them find the lowest cost
allocation of the payments. (DRP has its own issues, granted.) Oh, and they
might want to go back to BP to figure out how much they can really spend on
new expenses given their debt service and need to pay down the liabilities
going forward. They can then use BP to figure out why it isn't working out
and bankruptcy is nearing.

"harrelsonesq" <harrelsonesq2[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uNkTsT2EGHA.3576[at]TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I know *this* budget doesn't manage cash flow. Cash flow does. But cash flow
doesn't work. And why do you care what you spend, except to manage cash
flow? If I didn't have to try not to spend more than I make, I wouldn't even
bother to keep track. That's the whole point.

I understand how the budget works in Money. I just don't find that model
useful for anything.

Like I understand that interest is an expense, and escrow definitely and
principal in a sense are transfers, but my mortgage payment is $xxx.xx, and
that's what I have to pay, so that's what I care about. It's not like the
principal actually transfers to the asset account automatically or anything.
Or if it did, the $80 would made any difference.

I'm obviously not an accountant, but some of the premises Money is based on
don't seem to bear much relationship to reality. Like the guy who had to
report credit card payments on a financial aid application. That's the way
you use your financial data in the real world.

What do YOU use the Money "budget" for?

Susan

"Chris Cowles" <NoSpam[at]For.me> wrote in message
news:uW69alxEGHA.2040[at]TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
- quote -

That is what I have been told.

--
Regards
Bob Peel,
Microsoft MVP - Money

For UK tips & fixes see
http://support.microsoft.com/default...d=fh;EN-GB;mny.


I do not respond to any emails that I have not specifically asked for.

"Howie" <nothere[at]this.time> wrote in message
news:5rbur1pka7l95als8ec8vu8d0uscd3q6jh[at]4ax.com...
- quote -

AFAIK it is code in the Money/Quicken programme that stops accepting any
sort of download or stock price update.

--
Regards
Bob Peel,
Microsoft MVP - Money

For UK tips & fixes see
http://support.microsoft.com/default...d=fh;EN-GB;mny.


I do not respond to any emails that I have not specifically asked for.

"MoneyMan" <smrybacki[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136558046.971263.179880[at]g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:20:30 -0000, "Bob Peel, MVP" <bob_peel[at]NO
SPAM.kiandra.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

- quote -

Are you including stock quote information as part of the limited
(time) download expectation?


--Howie

"harrelsonesq" <harrelsonesq2[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Os2rS8oEGHA.1584[at]TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
- quote -

Mortgage Interest is an expense. Neither Mortgage Principal nor Mortgage
Escrow are expenses. They are transfers to either accounts, either liability
(principal) or asset (escrow). Asset and Liabilities are not normally part
of an Income/Expense report, therefore are not in a budget.

In Money, debt payments are treated inconsistently. Technically, only the
interest portion should be in the budget. But Money puts the entire amount,
including escrow, in the budget. I think it's intended as a variation of
'Pay yourself first', where you plan your savings before budgeting your
expenses. In the case of scheduled debt, I guess they assume you have to pay
it, so it comes off the top. I don't like it 100%, but it works okay.

Budget don't help you manage cash flow. Cash flow forecasts help you do
that. Budgets help you stay within your goals of total expenses and income.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

Bob Peel, MVP wrote:
- quote -


Bob Peel, MVP wrote:
- quote -

So let me make sure I understand this. I can go to my credit union and
download what they are calling "active statements" for my accounts
there which are then automagically imported into Money 2003 Deluxe
which is very convenient and useful -- but only for a limited time
subject to some arcane reference in the EULA? Who controls that
anyway; Microsoft, my bank or both in cahoots? Does it just stop
working one day, X number of days from the first time I use it, thereby
forcing me to either upgrade or reload my whole system from scratch to
regain the functionality I paid for?

If this is true, it is very alarming to me, not because I will get that
dependant on the feature that my world will crumble if it stops one
day, but more because these companies are programming calculated and
planned obsolescence into their products that we buy in good faith. I
am a Microsoft programmer /SQL Server DBA by trade so I am not a
complete computer illiterate or anything and I had no idea this sort of
thing was built into my software! Are there any alternatives that
avoid this syndrome?

Bob Peel, MVP wrote:
- quote -

So let me make sure I understand this. I can go to my credit union and
download what they are calling "active statements" for my accounts
there which are then automagically imported into Money 2003 Deluxe
which is very convenient and useful -- but only for a limited time
subject to some arcane reference in the EULA? Who controls that
anyway; Microsoft, my bank or both in cahoots? Does it just stop
working one day, X number of days from the first time I use it, thereby
forcing me to either upgrade or reload my whole system from scratch to
regain the functionality I paid for?

If this is true, it is very alarming to me, not because I will get that
dependant on the feature that my world will crumble if it stops one
day, but more because these companies are programming calculated and
planned obsolescence into their products that we buy in good faith. I
am a Microsoft programmer /SQL Server DBA by trade so I am not a
complete computer illiterate or anything and I had no idea this sort of
thing was built into my software! Are there any alternatives that
avoid this syndrome?

AFAIK Quicken started the downward spiral, but I guess it would be
unreasonable to expect unlimited downloads for a product that costs around
$25

--
Regards
Bob Peel,
Microsoft MVP - Money

For UK tips & fixes see
http://support.microsoft.com/default...d=fh;EN-GB;mny.


I do not respond to any emails that I have not specifically asked for.

"Money Man" <smrybacki[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vumsr159dkdjlj02ncc9u28gagmashksgh[at]4ax.com...
- quote -

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:49:36 -0000, "Bob Peel, MVP" <bob_peel[at]NO
SPAM.kiandra.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

- quote -


WTF? Is this a trend in just Microsoft's financial software, or is
this the way it is in Quicken et al?

- quote -

Sure. No matter how many times I change the category on my mortgage payment
to Loan Payment: Mortgage, the next month Money calls it Bills: Mortgage
Interest. About half the time I don't catch it.

The way I find out is in the monthly report, where it says, This month you
spent $xxx on Bills: Mortgage Interest. Last month you didn't spend anything
in this category. The times I do remember to change it, the splits are
populated just fine, so it does "remember" the Loan Payment.

I have lots of other splits, and they all "stick." My paycheck sticks. My
Credit Card Payment: Credit Card Y payments usually aren't categorized, and
I have to put the category in every time, but the Loan Payment is the only
thing I have that actually changes itself to something else uninvited.

Speaking of, I have always wondered what was the use of a category for
Bills: Mortgage Interest. Where are Bills: Mortgage Principal, and Bills:
Mortgage Escrow? What would you do with those items after you entered the
interest in the Bills category?

I find the budget useless for any number of reasons. The thing with changing
the amounts retroactively when an expense goes up (and they all do!) is the
most bass ackwards thing I have ever seen. The duplicated income and expense
items are fixable, but shouldn't appear in the first place. Why can't it
exclude variable items from budget advisories? I don't need a computer to
tell me I "may have overestimated my spending for Bills: Natural Gas," based
on the payments from June, July, and August!

Why does it insist on dividing yearly expenses by 12, but can't multiply
weekly expenses by 4.33? It should automatically put in all your bills, and
give you a residual number for you to use to allocate your discretionary
spending to the categories you want. What is the point of a budget at all
except to help you manage cash flow? There is already a feature to tell you
what you spent last month's or last year's money on. It's called a report.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Susan

"MoneyMan" <smrybacki[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136494227.393301.197350[at]o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

You don't NEED to upgrade. Except for Bob's point about downloads
potentially failing at stop point, if 2003 meets your needs, why change?

Eventually M2003 will stop allowing any downloads - check the EULA for the
precise timing.

--
Regards
Bob Peel,
Microsoft MVP - Money

For UK tips & fixes see
http://support.microsoft.com/default...d=fh;EN-GB;mny.


I do not respond to any emails that I have not specifically asked for.

"MoneyMan" <smrybacki[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136494227.393301.197350[at]o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

MoneyMan wrote:
- quote -

I went home last night determined to understand M2003's capabilities to
the best degree possible and I made several discoveries. My bank
allows you to export account statement files that are automagically
imported into Money and this saves a TON of time. I'm left wondering
why I'd need to uprade at all?

"harrelsonesq" <harrelsonesq2[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:OmP9PhbEGHA.2728[at]TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I never used 05 but do use 06. Online banking in it works well and others
have commented about transaction matching improvements in 06 vs. 05. (I have
minimal experience with Passport, and what I had was unsatisfactory. Others
are satisfied.)

- quote -

I'm only replying to your comments because you're so emphatic on this topic.
I disagree totally. There are idiosyncracies, but budgeting works quite well
when you know all the details of how to make it work. The first thing you
have to adapt to is that scheduled bills are automatically part of the
budget. Some users find that unacceptable. I like it.

- quote -

Loan accounts work fine for me. I'm unfamiliar with the issue you refer to.
Can you elaborate?
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL