Let me add some other issues from my situation:

My main cash handling account--where all the paychecks move through--is a
credit union draft account. It's free. They provide downloaded QIF from
their web site and are otherwise available only via Yodlee. So, the
integrated transaction download scenario requires M05 or 6, Passport, and
Money Sync-With-the-Web. I put all of these as costs on the debit side of
the ledger. Could I change FIs in order to get direct download? Yes. Would I
gain ONE other thing for doing so? No. Is there ANY other reason I'd like to
punt the CU? Well, they pay squat for a savings account yield and they pay
$0 on the cash that floats through the draft account--typical minimum
balance each month $250, typical average daily balance $2,500. But my ONLY
cost for using them is my annual $35 safe deposit box fee.

(BTW, the savings account generates one transaction each month, for the
interest, that does not otherwise get in the Money account register from
scheduled and entered transactions. I spend much longer watching Money spin
when I enter this transaction than I actually spend typing out this
transaction. (Most months I do this by adding it to the balance account
dialog. No direct transaction entry involved at all.) If I dowloaded it and
accepted it and watched Money spin instead, it's hard to imagine how much
time that would save once a month but it's easy to figure its not even in
the noise.)

How do I pay the two credit cards that are likely to have any transactions
subject to download in a given month? (When out and about, we use Discover
for eveything we can that's over $10 or so and doesn't offer a discount for
cash or charge for taking Discover. We use Mileage Plus Visa for what's left
that's over $10 or so.) At the end of the billing period, I enter the
scheudled payment--adjusted from the scheduled "average" amount to the
curent balance--and flag it for follow-up three days prior to due date. When
the flag plays, I go to the CC's web site, login, and tell them to go fetch
the previous statement balance due from the Draft account. No muss. No fuss.
No help available at all from downloaded transaction data. By the time there
is a transaction to download, it's old news to Money. So, I could download
and match it. What would that gain me? Proof it actually happened? Big
whoop. It hasn't failed once yet without this form of closed-loop proof.

Which transactions are a genuine headache to enter? Entering transactions by
hand after business trips and vacations is very tedious. (Two weeks in
Hawaii generates three or four hours worth of hand transaction entry.)
Downloading the Discover and Mileage Plus Visa would make the post-vacation
action easier. But I'd still have to deal with lots of new Payees and
unknown categories and so forth. Not to mention that these transactions tend
to get lots of memo information. And I classify all vacation transactions.
And the proportion of cash--no download data transactions on vacation is
much higher than normal. Business travel expenses are all supposed to be on
the "company" card--which doesn't bill to them so I have to deal with it. I
cannot download this account via Yodlee or directly. So, downloaded
transaction data doesn't help here, either.

I don't skip the downloaded transaction thing just so I can say so here. I
skip it because I don't see sufficient positive value in messing with it.
I'm not ignorant about it. On the contrary, perhaps I know too much about
it. Enough to know that for the way I manage our finances it doesn't offer
much clear month-to-month benefit.

"Chris Cowles" <NoSpam[at]For.me> wrote in message
news:uNgUgbuyFHA.4032[at]TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I know that's the theory.

Most transactions I record have things like memos, classification, paycheck
split values, or are in accounts that are not enabled--my 401k has something
like 8 or 9 transactions every week.

Since I get paid weekly, the scheduled paycheck is a big hitter in
transaction count. It'd get edited by hand almost every week to track the
stub and is not typed in by hand in the first place. Ditto my wife's
bi-monthly ones.

The majority of our other transactions are in Discover. Many of them (DSL,
DSS, basic phone, web hosting) are scheduled and transaction entry time is
no issue. More of them (long distance, cell phone) are scheduled but involve
splits and classification so they require splits and editing.

Some are checks I print for paper bills (gas, electricity, water, sewer).
Since I print the checks, by the time they download, Money already HAD to
know about them. So the download gains what?

Money spent at the grocery store usually involve splits. Money spent at the
gas station always involves classification.

The ones that are left are the easy ones to enter. (Tab, Tab, Taco Bell Tab,
$4.30, Enter. Gee, that takes a long time. And it's in (pocket change) and
won't download in the year 2050 much less now.)

I also have lots of investment transactions at Fidelity each month.
(Something like a dozen transactions across 7 accounts.) I've noted they
account for lots of complaints here about not working and playing especially
well via downloaded transaction data.

Yep, the theory is that downloading transaction data would save entry
effort. And that effort has to be offset by the effort to configure,
download, match, etc. I'm delighted to hear that many of you save effort
this way. I don't see how I would.

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:uTV106qyFHA.1168[at]TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
- quote -

Dependent on the number of transactions you normally record, by a
significant reduction in net effort.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

You know the drill.

"Mark Horn" <mark[at]hornclan.com> wrote in message
news:slrndkb8h6.29k.mark[at]home.hornclan.com...
- quote -

This might be a little easier, but I don't find it takes more than a few
minutes per account x3 or 4 accounts a month.

- quote -

I forget to enter a transaction or miss one maybe once or twice per month
average. I've never found recovering from this to be a problem, but you are
surely right that it would be easier to spot these cases from d/l data.
Regardless, whenever and however I find there is a missing entry it doesn't
just get in the data. I verify that it belongs there through whatever means
I have--ususlly finding the ticket in the pile and slapping my forehead and
saying "I hate it when I do that".

- quote -

No more than 45 days--i.e., the next statement. She's more anal than I am
about losing them--maybe because she's anal about it or because she knows I
am--so the biggest issue here is when she hands me two weeks worth and says
she forgot them in her wallet. Again, the temporary distortion of the
picture has never proven to be a specific problem since I manage to cashflow
and always trade off the size of the error safety net for vigilance to
trasaction flow. If I know that the checking account is going below $100 in
a given period--or have the Discover card full to its eye sockets and want
to make sure that the last web payment and the outstanding charges aren't
going to get in the way relative to a big charge--I'll cross check the web
account data with my understanding of where I'm at. I'd bet this only
happens on an exception basis--i.e., when I'm not getting an online only
statement or making an online epay--once or twice a quarter. Even with the
velocity I try to keep it moving at, the average balance in my checking
account is pretty high.

- quote -

And I've never said it has zero value. I've said the value must be offset by
the cost. If that trade looks positive, go for it. If it trade looks even
close to a wash or negative, why mess with it?

On 2005-10-06, Dick Watson <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:
- quote -

Even if you continued to enter every single one of your transactions
manually, I would think that reconciliation would be easier with d/l.
Personally, I find it much easier to determine that the bank got
it correct by comparing two transactions in the register instead
of comparing one of them in the register and one of them on my
statement. Even if the statement is simply on a webpage, I still
find it easier to make the comparison, when both items that need
comparing are both in Money.

I don't know how frequently you forget to manually enter a
transaction, but it would strike me that there's got to be some
value in being notified of this problem earlier than when you
receive your statement.

Ignore if you're not married: Does your wife ever lose a receipt?
How long does it take you to realize that there wasn't a transaction
in your register that should have been there?

Like I said, I'm not trying to convert you. I just have a hard time
seeing that transaction downloads provide absolutely zero value.
Especially when you're as familiar with PFM as you are.

Two comments inline.

"Mark Horn" <mark[at]hornclan.com> wrote in message
news:slrndkarq9.1e3.mark[at]home.hornclan.com...
- quote -

So am I.

- quote -

I can't see how.

On 2005-10-05, Dick Watson <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:
- quote -

First, I'm not trying to convert you.

Second, I don't think that you can base the value of something on
the reactions of someone who doesn't know how to use it. I d/l
transactions and I know the associated limitations. Yes, there
are a few hassles, but IMHO the value greatly outweighs the hassles.

- quote -

I would make the same recommendation. But since I know how to use
a car and I know its limitations, I'm going to try and take full
advantage of a car's value for myself. And if I were advising
someone who also knew the limits of cars, I wouldn't hesitate to
advise them to buy one. Same thing is true for d/l transactions.
If I think someone else knows their value and limitations, then I
say, dive right in.

I would suggest that if you're judging the value of d/l transactions
based on the response of people who don't know what they can and
can't do, you might be making a misinformed conclusion. I'm quite
certain that you (and Steve) could easily handle the minor hassles
associated with transaction d/l and I think you'd derive value.
But like I said, I'm not trying to convert you.

- quote -

If I suggested that you'd done something different, then I apologize
as that was not my intention.

crispywafers[at]yahoo.com wrote:
- quote -

That's the way I do it. You can shut off the warnings, but I wouldn't. It
may prevent an error if you were to do that unintentionally.

But you knew this when you got the car.

My personal issue with d/l transaction data is that the amount of time
savings or data integrity gain (if any) or increase in perceived personal
financial security seems unlikely to be offset by the increased amount of
hassle, aggravation, and annoyance keeping what little of it exists working
acceptably. Numerous posts in the NG daily affirm my preconceived bias in
this direction.

My issue with d/l transaction data for others--new users or whiners who
actually expect this stuff to work seamlessly--is that virtually all of them
are not aware of the limitations, issues, and collateral costs and are
unprepared to deal with them when they dive right in anyway. They are being
sold this stuff as "the effortless way" to "stop typing" and there's no
asterisk telling them that it may not be just this easy to do meaningful
PFM.

Imagine a bunch of people buying cars who didn't have a clue that they had
to fill it with gas, change the oil, change the tires, and perform other
routine maintenance. I'd recommend those people not buy the car until they
had a better grip on the tradeoffs involved and a readiness to deal with the
issues. I've never done any more WRT newbs and d/l transaction data to
Money.

"Mark Horn" <mark[at]hornclan.com> wrote in message
news:slrndk86mj.rn7.mark[at]home.hornclan.com...
- quote -

No you haven't. Some have, though.

On 2005-10-05, Dick Watson <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:
- quote -

Did I say such a thing here or elsewhere?

"Mark Horn" <mark[at]hornclan.com> wrote in message
news:slrndk86mj.rn7.mark[at]home.hornclan.com...
- quote -

On 2005-10-05, Dick Watson <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:
- quote -

Absolutely true!

But just because that's true doesn't mean that downloaded
transactions have no value at all. Sure, that particular transaction
needs additional work in order to achieve that degree of accuracy.

If I had a standard for the value of downloaded transactions that
required that the transactions be downloaded perfectly, then I
would be disappointed with them too. But I don't think that's a
reasonable standard. And as such, downloads provide me value even
if they don't do everything that some might like. In exactly the
same way that my car provides me value even though it requires me
to fill it with gas, change the oil, change the tires, and other
routine maintenance.

Thank you for the help. I just wanted to be sure, as I have a budget,
etc. set up for these categories as well.. and I did not want the
reports/budget to be thrown off by the double entries into the expense
categories.

Thank you!

Many or maybe even most of us just put the refund/rebate/credit back in the
expense category where the money originally came from. Yes, Money will ask
you if you know what you are doing. Say yes. (You can turn off this nag in
the settings, but unless you do this a lot there's really no reason to worry
about it and it can be handy if you mistype or something.) Putting in a -150
expense will still elicit the nag because Money only really cares about the
net sign, not whether you put it in the spend or credit box. They just put
both boxes there because it's easier for many people to understand than
using the sign. This gives the best reporting and so forth--unless you
defeat this with customization--reflecting the net of what you actually
spent.

As to the specific case you cite: buy $200 worth of stuff, return that stuff
for $50 worth of stuff and a $150 credit, you can just record the $150
credit against the original expense category. But say you returned the $200
worth of Computer:Hardware for $50 worth of Leisure:Home Electronics. You
really want to reflect $50 of spending on Leisure:Home Electronics and none
on Computer:Hardware. The way to do this is the split transaction. Make the
new transaction:
Split: ($200) Computer:Hardware
Split: $50 Leisure:Home Electronics
(total: ($150)).
Note that this is the kind of thing that downloaded transaction data is
utterly incapable of communicating and hand tweaking the d/l data--or
matching it against hand entered transaction--is required.

See also http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?q=179.

<crispywafers[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128523311.389976.291090[at]z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

How do you account for a refund in money?

Example: Purchased $200.00 video card from CompUSA on Oct 1

Money records that transaction in my account transactions and it is
categorized as Expense: Computer/Electronics

Return $200.00 video card to CompUSA on Oct 7, but also purchase $50
dollars in other items. CompUSA refunds me $150.00. Money records that
transaction in my account.

My question is for the second transaction, the credit, do I again
categorize it as Expense: Computer/Electronics. Money always gives me
that nasty warning that I'm categorizing income as an expense.. but it
seems to me that I would want that credit to apply to that category so
that my monthly reports etc. only show $50.00 spent that month in
Computer/Electronics.

Is this correct? Or does money then calculate the second transaction as
an expense since it was placed in an expense category.. and therefore
my monthly report would show $350.00 spent that month for
Computer/Electronics?

One person told me I should do it this way.. another person told me I
should actually enter "-150.00" as the amount for the second
transaction instead of a positive 150.00 credit. Help?