Hi L,

By the way I am not arguing with you, just having fun discussing an
interesting topic


"L Cramer" <lzcramer[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:KZNVe.12121$tc7.6955[at]fe03.lga...
- quote -

There is plenty of it already, including MSFT products, including Money
2002. I haven't upgraded from Excel or Word 2000 because I don't need to.
They do it all. My stock trading software is about 15 years old and still
state of the art. I still use Money 2002 because it is superior to all
newer versions and will definitely work forever for free as long as MSFT
does not intentionally block downloads.



Unfortunately, I find that software is not like landscape
- quote -

I really disagree with this idea. I hope to change your mind or at least
get you thinking because this mindset has been encouraged by software makers
to make it easier for them to get away with what you correctly call "phony"
upgrades. I quit work 11 years ago at age 50 and became a stock trader. I
made my living since then with the same 15 year old trading software that
has never been upgraded and still works perfectly. Good software does not
necessarily require upgrades.

But software vendors discovered that when they make software too good people
will not ugrade at the rate they like. So MSFT and others have switched to
phony upgrades so they can slowly drizzle out improvements over many years.
Unfortunately that idea worked so good that software companies now call bug
fixes "upgrades" and they use pure hype to make the new version sound
terrific when, in fact, there is no substantive improvement whatsoever.

There is plenty of real work to be done on Money. Interface and data entry
improvements and more reporting power and flexibility - these core
improvements would substantially increase the usefulness of Money and
attract new customers and foster upgrade loyalty. But these substantive
improvements are hard work. MSFT would need to put real programmers on the
project. Instead MSFT has taken the easier and cheaper route and it has
worked pretty well - they seem to have much of the public duped and willing
to accept the baloney they call upgrades for the past 4-5 years.

It remains to be seen whether the 2 year activation manuever will pan out.


- quote -

Yeah, you are right. And it is sickening. I don't feel sorry for MSFT or
Intuit because I am sure they make plenty off Money/Quicken. I bet they
recovered their development costs a long time ago so most of the sales
revenue over the last 10 years has been profit. Remember there have been
almost no substantive changes in Money since it was first released. The
staff working on Money is mostly 4th or 5th string trainees, not the real
programmers.

- quote -

Doesn't this prove my case? If you and me are both willing to jump ship,
doesn't that show that MSFT's phony upgrades and 2 year activation scam are
really offensive and prone to cause customer loss not customer retention.
They are relying on the lack of competition and the sheep-like behavior of
the general public who seem willing to accept having sand thrown in their
eyes and come back for more!!

If enough folks boycott Money 2006, things will change for the better

Have you tried Moneydance. It does download as good as Money as far as I
have tested it (credit cards and banks). But I do not download from my
stockbroker because I account for cash in a way that is inconsistent with
the way Money and the brokers does it. So I enter my brokerage transaction
manually. As a stock trader I need to see my trade results in real-time and
cannot wait for a bank or broker to update their webpage so I type in trades
as they happen which makes downloading unnecessary. That is another one of
my pet peeves. Why don't banks/brokers give us real time access to our
transaction data. They can see it in real-time so I want to as well. It
just a matter of setting up their computers correctly and we should demand
that they do it.

Regards

Bill Wood

On 2005-09-14, L Cramer <lzcramer[at]yahoo.com> wrote:
- quote -

Someone already has: Money 2002. Works almost identically to
M03 & M04 and quite a bit better than M05 & M06. And it's not
self-crippling.

I am currently evaluating a migration.

I wish you well in your pursuit of software that performs forever at no
additional cost. Unfortunately, I find that software is not like landscape
rock, it requires upkeep to continue performing. That seems to be true of
all software, particularly so with software as cheap as Money.

As far as I can tell, after the rebates and specials, Microsoft receives
little money for each sale of a new version of Money. It's profit, if any,
comes from advertising and any other services it can get users to sign up
for. That's not a model I prefer, but I can understand how it has come to
pass. To be successful, the model requires annual updates that offer little
more than new advertising and subscription services. That Quicken is
marching to the same drum beat as Money suggests that they've read their
customer base correctly. Ugh.

When someone else downloads and incorporates mutual fund and stock broker
tranactions as well as Money, as imperfect as it is, I'll quickly jump ship.



"William R Wood" <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote in message
news:uNEX7xNuFHA.3188[at]TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
- quote -

On 2005-09-13, William R Wood <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote:
- quote -

Well, it costs them bandwidth. Sure it's probably only pennies
per user, but multiplied by a lot of users... From Microsoft's
perspective, it's probably a negligable cost, but it's not free.

"L Cramer" <lzcramer[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:akLVe.860$Q71.361[at]fe02.lga...
- quote -

Moneydance does. I am using it and it works great. Single mouse click and
all my quotes are downloaded. For Free!

Free quotes are all over the internet . MSFT can give us free quotes
forever if they want to.



- quote -

Well I do and I believe you should too

I have been getting "free" quotes from Money for 10+ years and MSFT's
current effort to change the rules is a violation of its contract with loyal
users as far as I am concerned. In case you forget, MSFT always marketed
Money as a personal finance program that conveniently downloads
quotes/financial data at no extra cost. It was clearly intended and
represented that transaction and quote downloads would be available
indefinitely since they are an integral part of the program that we
purchased. Never a word or even the merest hint (until now) about that
feature being disabled in the future. I bought and paid for every version
of Money from day one until MSFT destroyed its usefulness to me by changing
the budget report logic in version 2003. In short, the quote downloads and
transaction downloads are not actually "free", we all paid MSFT for that
service in the price of the program and they have no right to unilaterally
change the rules. I believe that if we sued MSFT we would win on that basis
and could force them to continue quotes and downloads forever with respect
to every version of Money sold before the warnings about automatic
expiration were published.


That's
- quote -


There are quite a few frustrated Quicken and Money customers looking for a
way around the expiration of downloads. There are also a lot of folks
running Macs and Linux who want a decent personal finance program that runs
well on those platforms. There are even more people who simply do not like
MSFT/Intuit for what they have become (arrogant and indifferent) and will
use anything that is not a product of either of those companies. So I think
MD has a decent chance to become a mainstream program.

If MSFT/Intuit continue to push customers around like they are now doing
with this 2 year activation business, I would say MD has a real good chance
of becoming a major player.


But I don't
- quote -

I agree that MSFT can change the rules for new versions that are explicitly
sold with the warning that downloads will expire in 2 years. But the
retroactive disabling of prior versions is just plain wrong. We will see
how well the new marketing effort goes. I still say that if existing loyal
customers boycott 2006 and later versions, MSFT will back off this new
policy. MSFT's earnings growth has begun to stagnate. Thus they are trying
to milk existing products for extra revenue. I say that they should improve
Money and encourage more sales and loyal upgraders by giving us a truly
brilliant program minus bugs, bloat and advertising instead of trying to
rope us into upgrades by disabling important features. That policy in not
customer friendly and it does not make me feel too happy about MSFT in
general.


- quote -

You said it. I now wonder what Microsoft is about. MSFT has been a great
company and I have purchased a ton of their products. MSFT was always an
innovator and an over achiever. This new idea of disabling important
features to force upgrades is so wacky, so anti-customer that I can't
believe it. I think it is a mistake and that we should not submit to it.

Regards

Bill Wood

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:eBq9EWKuFHA.3068[at]TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
- quote -

My mistake. Senior moment I guess. Maybe I was thinking about the fact
that it runs on all platforms, Linux, Mac and PC, and that the developer
encourages 3rd parties or users to create plug-ins to add features. Sort of
like open source

Anyway MD is a pretty neat program and quite a few people are already using
it to handle their finances.

Regards

Bill Wood

- quote -

Because Money integrates those quotes and financial transactions (an
important plus) into a convenient and useful package. Others don't do that.
Convenience is worth something. In this case a nominal fee. No, I don't
expect Money to provide me with a service indefinitely for free. That's
part of the problem here.

Moneydance is a fine, if limited, program. I question whether their
economic model works in the long run, but I wish them luck. But I don't
think one can expect Microsoft, of all companies, to continue to provide a
service for free forever. That ain't what Microsoft is about!



"William R Wood" <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote in message
news:eEDSWz7tFHA.1264[at]TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
- quote -

Moneydance Open Source? You sure?

"William R Wood" <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote in message
news:%23VnSz7IuFHA.3068[at]TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
- quote -

"fs" <someone[at]msft.com> wrote in message
news:IPDVe.34$2j6.129[at]news.oracle.com...
- quote -

Yes, there is a pretty good open source program which I have been running
along side Money 2002. Take a look at Moneydance:
http://www.moneydance.com/

This program is quite good and will handle most folks finances very well
right now. The reporting features are not quite powerful enough for me to
switch yet but the developer is quite responsive to users and I bet MD will
equal or maybe exceed Money by sometime next year. A major upgrade is due
out this fall and I am hopeful that I might be able to switch over then. MD
is small, fast and totally free from bloat or advertising. It downloads
transactions and quotes (totally free) just like Money and includes billpay
(which I don't use). Definitely worth a look and it has a free trial.

Regards

Bill Wood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Horn" <mark[at]hornclan.comNewsgroups: microsoft.public.money
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: Money 2 years activation


- quote -

Well, it doesnt really cost MSFT anything extra since they get the quote
data off the MSN Money system but you are right there is no way that I know
of to get 3rd party quotes into Money. And that is one of the things that
has always bugged me about Money. You are also right that MSFT did this on
purpose, probably as a way to trap folks into upgrading forever.


- quote -

No, you can download directly from Money.

Or are you still able to download
- quote -

Yes, no problems so far.

I download directly from Money 2002 with all banks that support direct
download. But some of my banks/brokers only support manual downloads so I
have to go the FI's website. Going to the FI's website is trivial and I
will do that gladly to avoid unnecessary upgrades or any type of access fee.

Regards

Bill Wood

Bill,
Thanks for putting it so succinctly. I was feeling similar to what you
have conveyed. I'll continue using my old version of Money rather than
submit to this personally unacceptable new practice for MSFT's Money. Maybe
a good open source personal financial s/w product is needed for competition
here (if there isn't one).

-rv



"William R Wood" <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote in message
news:Odf8puttFHA.2792[at]tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
- quote -

On 2005-09-12, William R Wood <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote:
- quote -

Is there a way to setup the quote downlods in Money? I don't think
that there is. So, if you're going to get quotes in Money, it costs
MSFT to get them. Of course, that MSFT's own problem. They're the
ones that set it up that way. They could very easily make this a
configurable item, but they don't. They want a way to push upgrades.

- quote -

So let me make sure I understand. The only way you download
transactions into M02 is to do a file import after doing a download
from your bank's website? Or are you still able to download
transactions directly from Money (e.g. w/out going through your
bank's website)?

"L Cramer" <lzcramer[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rJgVe.2476$6Z3.195[at]fe06.lga...
- quote -

But there are other places to download free quotes, why pay MSFT?
Moneydance does it for free.


- quote -


Yes I use my banks and brokers websites to download most of my transaction
data and don't care about Money's automatic downloads. Downloading from
within Money is more convenient but rather than pay access fees I will do it
manually which only takes about 2-3 mouse clicks.


- quote -

Well maybe when they get hit with the first mandatory upgrade fee they will
start doing the math. Say you start using Money when you are 30 and live to
80. That's 25 upgrades if MSFT's current 2 year policy holds which comes to
$1,500 if you buy the deluxe version at $60 and the price never goes up.
Twenty five phony upgrades for 1500 is not my idea of a good plan

It will be interesting to see what happens.

- quote -

Yes, but I was refering to the downloading of stock prices, etc, in which
Money is providing a service.

While I use Money's set up to download transactions from investment houses,
I thought many of them were set up for direct downloading to Quicken, Money,
and spreedsheet formats. Won't banks do this also?

In any case, this model of cheap money-tracking software is headed in the
wrong direction . . . at least for me. But it looks like a large number of
people are perfectly willing to put up with buggy and advertising-laden
products as long as the price is low.





"William R Wood" <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote in message
news:umKFfB6tFHA.2160[at]TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
- quote -

"L Cramer" <lzcramer[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Mv6Ve.9726$tc7.1899[at]fe03.lga...
- quote -

How is MSFT providing download service? MSFT is not maintaining my internet
connection or my bank's data servers. Once setup by the financial
institution, downloading will work forever at no extra cost. Free internet
access to my transaction data is a service I demand from all FIs that I deal
with. There are plenty of banks/brokers that will provide that service
gladly since it saves them a ton of money not having to mail me statements
or cancelled checks which I don't want to store anyway. Maybe the FIs pay
MSFT a fee for connectivity to Money and thats fine since the banks know
that access to transaction data is important to attract and retain
customers. But I don't like MSFT hitting me up for repeat "phony" upgrades
(your term is most accurate) which amount to lifetime access fees. In fact
there is no way I will ever buy any upgrade to Money unless they retract the
new automatic expiration of downloads policy.


Unfortunately, Money has gone
- quote -

Why is MSFT entitled to a subscription fee for continued downloads? What
continuing service are they providing? I view permanent fees as gouging and
unacceptable and hope others agree and boycott Money upgrades. If Money
sales drop off, MSFT will withdraw the policy.

MSFT's new policy is even more offensive because it compounds the the years
of phony upgrades we have already seen. Why should we pay MSFT a
subscription fee or a mandatory upgrade fee which amounts to rewarding them
for bad bahavior - no bona fide effort to perfect the core program,
misleading hype regarding upgrades, and now, milking loyal customers for all
they are worth.



- quote -

Yes, you are dreaming No way will I cave in to MSFT's demands for
mandatory upgrades based on a hope (or even a promise) that they will fix
bugs and strip the program of bloat and advertising. I say stop buying
Money upgrades...... then MSFT will make Money work correctly in order to
win back customers.

- quote -

think Money and Quicken would be worth substantially more given the
important work they do and assuming they worked properly. There is no
software that is more important to me than Money. If MSFT or any other
company would offer a program that did exactly what I want without bugs,
silly bloat, advertising or other annoyances I would pay many times what
they now charge for Money or Quicken. But I will not pay permanent
subscription fees or buy mandatory upgrades because those payment methods
kill the incentive of the software developer to perfect the program. Once
they have you trapped, it is very painful to switch to another program and
the softwear vendor knows that.

At this point we need more competition. Intuit and MSFT are both playing
the same game with customers because they think they can get away with it.
Stop buying upgrades and/or consider switching to Moneydance, that will get
their attention and we will see real progress. Just look at programs like
Word and Excel....... MSFT can produce absolutely outstanding software when
they put their heart into it. Money could be perfected in a matter of
months if necessary to combat loss of customers.

I bought Moneydance and I am watching it closely. It will handle downloads
and all bookeeping needs for most folks right now. It has basic reports and
handles investments fairly well but needs improvement in those areas. A
major upgrade is due out this fall. I will be testing it and may switch at
that time. If so my problems with Money are over Take a look, you will
like what you see:

http://www.moneydance.com/



Regards,

Bill Wood
Fountain Hills, AZ








- quote -

Good luck. But I don't expect MS to provide download service indefinitely
for a product with a net cost of $0 - $40. Unfortunately, Money has gone
the phony upgrade route, with all the bloat, advertising and bugs you point
out, to keep the product cash flow positive. Too bad they didn't adopt the
antivirus software model and simply charge a subscription fee for continued
downloads.

Maybe, once freed from the need to annually offer up something new to
justify buying the latest upgrade, MS might actually use some of the
subscription money to fix the bugs in its existing versions. But I guess I
haven't had enough to drink tonight to think that will happen.

Part of the problem here is that people won't pay much for Money, in fact
brag about how little they paid for it, and then complain that it's a cheap
product! Yes, it is. <g


"William R Wood" <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote in message
news:Odf8puttFHA.2792[at]tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
- quote -

Being utterly cynical I can see a time in the future when MS will "by
accident" have a problem with downloads that affects versions prior to 2003
and as those versions are out of support they won't be fixed....

But of course MS would never do that ...... VBEG!

--
Regards
Bob Peel,
Microsoft MVP - Money

For UK tips & fixes see
http://support.microsoft.com/default...d=fh;EN-GB;mny.
For wishes or suggestions see
http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
or for UK wishes http://www.microsoft.com/uk/support/money/feedback

I do not respond to any emails that I have not specifically asked for.

"William R Wood" <w.wood[at]cox.net> wrote in message
news:Odf8puttFHA.2792[at]tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
- quote -

RV,

As Cal said there is no new Money version that is free from the 2 year limit
but Money 2002 (available from Amazon and eBay) is not subject to this
policy and all features including direct downloads still work perfectly.

I'm not happy about the 2 year limit either and suggest that all of us
boycott Money 2006 and future upgrades until MSFT gets the message.

I feel strongly that MSFT (and Intuit) have gone way over the line with this
new policy of forced upgrades. Until this happened I was a very loyal MSFT
product user but this new attempt to shove upgrades down my throat does not
warrant further loyalty.

Even if some folks are willing to overlook the unfriendly aspects of this
policy because they generally upgrade on a regular basis anyway, consider
the practical effects of buying 2006:

1 Giving in to MSFT on this policy will embolden them to try it with
other products in addition to Money.

2 If customers submit to this new marketing approach, what incentive
will MSFT have to improve Money or any other product that employs this
method of inducing upgrades. If people are forced to upgrade in order to
retain desirable features such as direct downloads and billpay why would
MSFT feel obligated to add substantive improvements in future versions?

3 What if you cave in and buy 2006 but later find that Money 2008 which
you must now buy to retain downloads deletes features that you depend on or
changes the interface in ways you dislike, or introduces bugs which impair
your continued use of valuable features etc etc.??? Exactly how responsive
will MSFT, or any software company, be about resolving such issues when they
know that customers must upgrade anyway to retain important downloading
features.

We have already seen the effect of too little competition in personal
finance software. Even though I have tested every new version of Money
including 2006, I still use 2002 and have never upgraded because: 1) none of
the newer versions provide any useful new features; 2) newer versions have
a bug in the budget reports that prevents me from upgrading; 3) newer
versions changed the interface for no good reason; 4) newer versions
contain too much silly bloat and advertising; 5) the current policy of
automatically expiring downloading features is totally unacceptable.

I am also concerned that banks and software companies will see our
capitulation to this new policy as a signal that other, even more aggressive
policies, can be imposed on customers. I believe that we as
banking/software customers are absolutely entitled to unrestricted access to
our own transaction data and that we should not accept any effort such as
this to milk us for what amounts to access fees.


Regards,

Bill Wood
Fountain Hills, AZ




<rvm5[at]sonic.net> wrote in message
news:F7FUe.13032$p%3.55041[at]typhoon.sonic.net...
- quote -

RV,

Microsoft expects you to upgrade yet again in 2 years time. If you
subscribe to this thinking the limitation shouldn't be a problem.

Mark

<rvm5[at]sonic.net> wrote in message
news:F7FUe.13032$p%3.55041[at]typhoon.sonic.net...
- quote -

In microsoft.public.money, <rvm5[at]sonic.net> wrote:

- quote -

No; no.