Please note:

There has always been a gap between the person that knows the subject and
what the
desired program result should be and the programmer then follow through,
i.e. quality control
testing that what had been asked to be programmed actually got programmed
and it works.

There is a failure on Microsoft's part, in particular, on Excel for example,
going all the way back
to their copying elements of Borland's Paradox I believe it was called. They
will just not fix the
problem......they are hard headed and stupid and not in touch with the REAL
world..

The programmers can program anything, everything. Problem is getting all to
work together.
They have timelines and budgets for products and they would rather release a
product that has not really been tested that is within timelines and budget
than to get it right. Of course the testers have to really test it and that
is a big problem. Poor dictates to the programmers and poor tester knowledge
of products and general use of such products produce errors and dropped
versatilities, i.e the printing setup in MS Money 97 was superb and they
then dropped that
versatitity in MS Money 98 and forward. Don't think it has been fixed even
with the latest
versions because there seems to be few complaints and I will never buy MS
Money again because of it. . i.e. you could invidualize print setup on each
individual report in MS Money 97 and you from MS Money 98 forward you were
allowed only 1 setup for all reports. In Money 98
and forward the individualizing of reporst, portrait, landscape, page size
for each report was
dropped and you have to constantly change back and forth and try to remember
which method
fits which report you have.........97 was excellent and 98 a piece of shit,
report printing-wise.

I you do a program properly there is little need for anything but a common
sense user and
little tech support.

One only needs to see the amount of tech support, patches, fixes and other
crap that is
necessary after a product is loaded on your computer that is totally
unneeded were the program
done properly to begin with. Oh and then like on tech support for Windows I
have to talk to
some lame brain in Bangladesh that understands English perfectly but has
absolutely no
comprehension of what English words spoken actually mean. Time to get back
to either,
American, England/Irish/Canadian support and drop this India crap. Let the
people in India
talk to the European and Asian callers for tech support....maybe that would
work.

Gordon

"Tom G" <123mpel[at]vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:O0NYp15FFHA.1348[at]TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I think if you ask American Express they will say they are a Bank! I agree
that they are best known for their charge cards and lately some credit cards
but basically they are a Bank.

--
Regards
Bob Peel,
Microsoft MVP - Money

For UK tips & fixes see
http://support.microsoft.com/default...d=fh;EN-GB;mny.
For wishes or suggestions see
http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
or for UK wishes http://www.microsoft.com/uk/support/money/feedback

I do not respond to any emails that I have not specifically asked for.

"CambriaOne" <CambriaOne[at]discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:B0A5CD69-B84B-4A4F-8CF3-B5DA5B5C0BFA[at]microsoft.com...
- quote -

I will give you my one and only experience so far, from this morning, but
I've only been an 05 user for 25 hours now.
HIM: What is your bank?
ME: What do you need that for?
HIM: You said you had a problem with an account download and I need to know
the bank.
ME: It's not a bank, it's American Express.
HIM: Is that a bank?
We idn't get very far along Help Avenue this morning.

"Humptydank" wrote:

- quote -

I should specify tight-fisted consumers many of whom will just as happily
steal the product.

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:exUSQwBGFHA.628[at]TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
- quote -

Absolutely agreed on all points. In the case of software, competition
coupled with tight-fisted customers promptly drives the selling price down
to the marginal price: the cost of the box and the CD. Recouping the
development costs goes out the window.

And if they can't sell enough ads, do the improve the product? Hell no.
They're in the content business. They pull the plug and try to find
different content. They couldn't care less what that content is. Look at
television.

"harrelsonesq" <harrelsonesq2[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0OdSd.33485$xt.24318[at]fed1read07...
- quote -

But, Dick, if they can no longer promise to deliver enough eyeballs, the ad
revenue ceases. Therefore, they DO still have an incentive to improve the
product (or at least not break it to the point that people won't buy it!).

I'm not sure that the ad-driven business model, which merely removes the
incentive to satisfy the customer by one step, is superior to the one that
aims to sell only one of anything, because doing so makes enough money that
repeat customers are superfluous.

The real problem is that personal finance -- perhaps, as you said, all
consumer -- software isn't a profitable product in the marketplace, so there
is basically zero chance of a competitor coming out with something that
would challenge MS & Intuit to improve their products. Lack of meaningful
competition stifles development.

I bet there are lots of economists around here that disagree.

Susan


"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:uwc1ap6FFHA.3928[at]TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I agree with everything you wrote with one exception. Once the business
model transitions to an ad/marketing driven one, there is no compulsion for
them to improve the product and only a compulsion for ever more ads. What
Microsoft is then really selling is access to our eyeballs, not something
that does personal financial management. We are no longer their customer. Be
careful what you ask for. BTW, I don't begrudge them making a profit and
would also gladly spend more for a product that put my needs first.

"Tom G" <123mpel[at]vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:O0NYp15FFHA.1348[at]TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
- quote -

My primary (and I daresay, ONLY) consideration is for the consumer.

And to Microsoft, I would say: "you made your bed, now sleep in it." There
are multiple and recurring problems in this software, and it is inexcusable
that it was released before these problems were taken care of. This problem
is exacerbated by borderline technical support. (I should add that many of
my problems with the software could have been solved quickly by a competent
tech support person.) Again, I would say that, in my opinion, about 98% of
the actual bugs with the program could be mapped out to 1-3 different
modules. I realize that they are complex modules, but still ...

It seems to me that the algorithm is: make it correctly and then you can
afford to skimp on support, or conversely, make it shoddy and then invest
the time to fix it on the fly via tech support. In this case, they have
taken the worst of both approaches.

I would not have any misgivings about purchasing a more expensive program
that actually worked. As my father used to say: we're too poor to buy the
cheap option.

The ads, while annoying, don't bother me too much. I don't begrudge anyone
making a profit; I just want a workable product for my money. I think that,
as a consumer, we deserve that.

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko[at]mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:OELLnN3FFHA.3596[at]TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
- quote -

If you've called Support many, many times, then you are a poster child for
the whole problem here: you bought the software for $25 or less. The first
call wiped out any profit from the sale, no matter whether the support
center is in Bangor, Maine, or Bangalore, India. It only gets worse for them
when you call the second time. I'm not defending the product or knocking you
for calling Support nor denying that there are issues in M05 (et al.) that
demand support calls. In the case of M05, I certainly encourage people to
call MS Support: the Money team deserves it, thought it's a punishment that
only enforces a generally negative trend. But it clearly shows why Microsoft
wants to dumb the thing down and make the real money off the ads and
targeted marketing. It also shows why they want to migrate it to a web
service. If all the user's machine has to do is run a browser, just think
how many support calls they can save. Think how many
installation/reinstallation/broken installation/system conflict when one
more thing was installed/lost my CD/reinstalled the downloaded version but
lost the activation key support calls they will save. Add to that the number
of can't backup/file error reading/disk full/moved file and can't
find/accidentally erased file/backed up new empty file on top of old good
backup calls they save if the data is stored on their servers.

You say there's competition out there: if that were really true, we wouldn't
be having this thread. All of the competition has the exact same problem.
Home users, as a generalization, won't pay more than $50 for any software
that does anything. Many of them are more than content to steal it. Support
costs more than they can make off the products--no matter how perfect the
program, because many home users just can't even cope with FreeCell. Why is
Money ad-ridden? Because the market-share-dominant competition is. Why are
they? They've got to make a buck somehow. Selling software for $5 gross
profit and then answering the average number of support calls per copy is
sure no way to make a buck.

"Tom G" <123mpel[at]vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:%23Jty2xwFFHA.2608[at]TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
- quote -

I have had many problems with my Money 05 and have called tech support many,
many, many times. I have also had the pleasure to call MSN Bill Pay support.

Generally, the technical support that you will get is from someone in
Bangor, India. I have had numerous "discussions" with these people, who try
to be helpful and are friendly and gracious. However, as I was told on
numerous occasions by different people in India, they receive only a few
months training. They are, however, Microsoft employees (as opposed to being
farmed out), but they are TOTALLY overwhelmed. For the most part these poor
souls respond according to a script (which I can now recite almost by
heart). I must say in their behalf, that on occasion, they have provided me
with a correct answer. However, I find this to be the exception, rather than
the rule. Often, I have had to correct them: I take it as a bad sign when I
know considerably more about the program than the tech support people. Wait
times are often terrible, no matter what they say. On many occasions I have
been told that the wait time is about 5 minutes, only to be on hold for 50
minutes (what's a zero, between friends).

I was able to get an issue "escalated" to someone in Redmond, WA. This
person was very helpful, but didn't solve the problem and passed me on to
someone else, who was also very nice, but again: didn't solve the problem.

I have also had to opportunity to talk with MSN Bill Pay tech support (these
are actually CheckFree employees). They are very professional and helpful.
However, they occasionally give advice about Money, which they should not
do, since they have only minimal training (at best) in the program. Wait
times for MSN Bill Pay are very short (especially if you call around 11:00
pm).They do, occasionally, pass you on to Microsoft, and then you're back in
India for another round (it's like talking to Apu, on The Simpsons); I don't
like to be passed on to someone else. I find it unprofessional.

Overall, I am appalled by the shoddy service and by Microsoft's arrogance in
treating it's loyal customers as cattle. It's not as if there isn't some
competition out there; yet I remain loyal to the program. Hope springs
eternal.

As a rule the MVPs here are helpful, but often times they will give you a
short and difficult to understand response; often as a phrase or short
sentence. More information is always helpful; the user will always
appreciate too much detail rather than too little.

I'm done venting.

Tom
"Humptydank" <Humptydank[at]discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:9D83932E-CE57-480C-8676-82AA32D55B7C[at]microsoft.com...
- quote -

Read more posts. You are likely to find a litany of good, bad, and ugly, at
least some of which sound a lot like your worst case scenario. Note also:
Support is also in no position to fix the code. And some, maybe most, Money
issues are not code defects. They are fundamental concept, design
requirements, and business model defects.

"Humptydank" <Humptydank[at]discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:9D83932E-CE57-480C-8676-82AA32D55B7C[at]microsoft.com...
- quote -

Hello --

I'm evaluating Money 2005, and these boards are very helpful in seeing the
types of problems people are having.

I think problems in software this complex are inevitable, so the real
judgement should be how quickly and easily Microsoft people are able to make
themselves available to solve problems, and then actually solve them. The
MVP responses here seem great, but with all due respect to their knowledge it
isn't backed up with the power to actually go in and fix things if they come
up.

So has anyone interacted with Microsoft tech support on Money issues? With
so many distributed systems interacting here, my main concerns are not
software-type install or bug issues, but sorting out things like the
interaction between Money and MSN or Money and my banks online system.

My worst case scenario is to have a major problem and have Microsoft say I
have to call MSN, and MSN say I have to Money, or my bank, etc.

Does anyone have any feedback to offer?

Thanks!

-- Dave