"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> writes:
- quote -

"hiding" may not be the right word. But the thing is that
the rules are very complex. They vary depending on whether
the recipient of the gift was a trust or not, whether the
gift was made at a fair market value, what form the gift
took, and they vary state-by-state.

Anyone who has made a substantial gift within a few years
of expecting to apply for Medicaid should consult with an
attorney who specializes in this. Whether there are bad
motives ("hiding") or not (ie. someone helped out a kid
with a house downpayment and then needed a nursing home,
perhaps unexpectedly), complying with these complex rules
correctly is very important.


--
Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks. The rest gets trashed.
No HTML in E-Mail! -- http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow?
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

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"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ioQBk.233532$102.36699[at]bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
- quote -


well, I bet those folks who are paying tons of income taxes would rather
others chip in even more than those others currently do. They wish to help
those in need, but wish for others to pay for their wishes.

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"Gil Faver" <rowdy'sboss[at]xxyz.com> wrote in message
news:kpOBk.233347$102.22649[at]bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
- quote -

No inheritance is earned. The kids chose to work for less than they were
worth. Yes, people have a right to do with their money as they wish. I wish
not to use my money to pay for someone's nursing home care that they can
well afford to pay for themselves. Those same people could be cared for at
home by those same children who expect to inherit, by the way, and thus save
all that nursing home cost.

Elizabeth Richardson

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"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:nJBBk.46704$Mh5.39425[at]bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
- quote -

In my example, the kids earned their inheritance. And, I look at bequests
as a right for someone to do with their money what they wish (and if they
want to stiff their kids who did not work in a family business, that's ok by
me).

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"Gil Faver" <rowdy'sboss[at]xxyz.com> wrote in message
news:SHxBk.231889$102.227450[at]bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
- quote -

So you're in favor of cradle-to-grave health care? I, for one, am not and I
think most Americans are not either. I don't give a whit whether someone
inherits or not. Inheritances are not "rights" but privileges. I am not in a
position to guarantee someone else's privileges by paying for something they
can easily afford themselves. An inheritance isn't due until someone dies.
Are the parents dead before they hit the assisted living center? And, let's
face it, most of these older people will not be in nursing homes but,
rather, assisted living centers. There is a world of difference.

Elizabeth Richardson

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"joetaxpayer" <joetaxpayer[at]nospam.com> wrote
- quote -

I think the conflict is between (1) telling older
(generally) people they cannot transfer their assets; and
(2) telling younger (generally) people they must pay,
through taxes, for old folks' care. Which is more loathsome?

This sort of conflict is routine and invites a slippery
slope. Shall we next declare couples who refuse to marry
because of a diminishment in Social Security benefits that
they are, for all intents and purposes, married after X
years and so must give up some of their Social Security? Are
these folks taking advantage of taxpayers too? One can say
yes they are, but then one had better note that the line has
to be drawn somewhere, re married and unmarried couples and
SS benefits. Wherever the line is drawn, someone is going to
feel shortchanged.

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"Gil Faver" <rowdy'sboss[at]xxyz.com> wrote
- quote -

If the parents wanted their children to have the family
business, wouldn't they have made arrangements to gradually
turn it over, so it could not be counted among the parents'
assets?

I do think you raise a tough issue that arises between some
parents and children, though. For the wealthy, paying for
in-home care (nurses and such) is expensive. It is cheaper
to go to a non-Medicaid nursing home and pay out-of-pocket.
Greedy children who do not know how to make their own
livings will be inclined to push their parents into an old
folks' home so their inheritance (if their parents left
their estate to them) is not decimated. Yet come on, the
parents worked hard too. Are they not entitled to pay the
high cost of home health care as long as possible, living in
the way they chose and earned, rather than be stuck in an
old folks home?

- quote -

Two weeks ago I had the sad responsibility of helping a
relative get admitted to a nice, Medicaid qualified nursing
home. The relative had squandered a very reasonable, large
divorce settlement received some 20 years ago. She has no
assets; only her meager, monthly Social Security income.

Why did she squander it? Because she did not have enough
education to fend off shark-like financial planners who did
not know what they were doing. She bought into junk bonds,
promised a nice return, for example.

In spite of their foolishness, I have a hard time tossing
elderly people like this (in this instance, with
Alzheimer's) onto the streets. I am not sure whether you are
attacking nursing home Medicaid or not, but I think it is a
good thing that enables young people to keep working while
their parents or relatives are decently cared for.

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Elizabeth Richardson wrote:

- quote -

The 'hiding' that prompted your note was rick++'s reference to the
lookback rules (he thought 3 years, but it's now 5).
In my case, I could have counseled my mother-in-law to put her assets in
an irrevocable trust, and if she makes it past five years, she'd be
eligible for medicaid, as she'd have 'no' assets.

To answer Gil - As I stated, I am on the fence as to when such
maneuvering is appropriate. Why should you (or any taxpayer) have to pay
the bill for my mother-in-law when she had assets that she could use for
her own care? If she were truly out of money, I understand, but I think
I side with Elizabeth that hiding (even within the law) funds takes
one's care and foists it upon all taxpayers.

Joe

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"joetaxpayer" <joetaxpayer[at]nospam.com> wrote in message
news:wKSdnXxuOtoTGEvVnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d[at]comcast.com...
- quote -

I can chime in my two cents. Let's see, a family works hard at the family
business for decades, and then it is all to be spent taking care of the
parents. The kids worked for nothing and for cheap, because they were to
inherit the family business, and the family was close knit. Now, they stand
to get nothing, and those folks who did not work hard and put money away are
able to get extra benefits from the government, which this hard working
family ahs also been paying for with confiscatory tax rates due to their
success and hard work.

Hard for me to find fault with making use of the tax code as written in this
instance.

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"joetaxpayer" <joetaxpayer[at]nospam.com> wrote in message
news:wKSdnXxuOtoTGEvVnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d[at]comcast.com...
- quote -

Joe, I was responding to the word "hiding". I have no problem with people
accessing needed services available to them, nor for people legitimately
using the tax law to their own advantage. But "hiding" smacks of
illegalities. This cannot be tolerated by any of us.

Elizabeth Richardson

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Elizabeth Richardson wrote:

- quote -

I have mixed feelings about this. To your quote above, these attorneys
are making use of the tax code as it's written. Google [medicaid look
back rules] and you'll see that the tax laws encourage this.

Years ago, I asked a question about this issue on MTM (misc taxes
moderated) and got some sarcastic responses about how greedy children
were trying to game the system to gain an inheritance. Others chimed in
that the discussion and question were legitimate.

For my own circumstance, I directed my mother to leave it all to my
sister, and I put the chance that she shows up at my door to claim the
guest room at 50/50 20 years hence. No hiding assets.

There's a similar situation on my wife's side, with her sister not
planning at all for the future. I don't have my hand out for a dime, I
just don't want to have to plan to support an extended family who made
no plans of their own. I counseled my mother-in-law to set up proper
trusts to avoid probate and to dole out the remains so the spendthrift
daughter can't burn through the funds, but the trusts are pass through
and do not hide the assets for medicaid purposes.

So I agree with your intent, but not your conclusion. i.e. we need to
work to change the laws that permit any hiding or transfer of funds to
avoid paying for one's own care, but I know you were being dramatic
suggesting we jail lawyers who are simply using the current tax code to
their clients advantage. When I am asked by others, it's my job to tell
them what the laws are, even though I find it as distasteful as you.

Joe
www.blog.joetaxpayer.com

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"rick++" <rick303[at]hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ff7cce1c-3cb9-4e56-842e-dbcd50e61b51[at]8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
- quote -


Hope they go to jail. This is the same greedy attitude that has assaulted
the US financial industry.

Elizabeth Richardson

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On Sep 19, 2:14 pm, "Gil Faver" <rowdy'sb...[at]xxyz.com> wrote:

- quote -

There are lawyers who specialize hiding non-spousal assets.
Generally there is a three year look-back period where a state
could seize assets transferred to a relative or trust, so early action
is recommended. Some states are much more aggressive than others.

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"Avrum Lapin" <avrum223[at]verizon.net> wrote
- quote -

"Medicaid does not provide medical assistance for all poor
persons. Even under the broadest provisions of the Federal
statute (except for emergency services for certain persons),
the Medicaid program does not provide health care services,
even for very poor persons, unless they are in one of the
designated eligibility groups."

Wiki also cites that 60% of poor Americans are not covered
by Medicaid.

By no stretch does Medicaid equate to universal health care
for the impoverished.

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In article <GUVAk.44288$Mh5.10667[at]bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> ,
"Gil Faver" <rowdy'sboss[at]xxyz.com> wrote:

- quote -

income and <$3000 liquid assets per individual for singles. Coverage
with share of costs exists with incomes to $1200/mo. (your share =
income - $600 approx). Your home, certain jewelry, an older car are
excluded. Different rules apply to married people

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"Dave Dodson" <dave_and_darla[at]juno.com> wrote
- quote -

He asked about long term care. See the subject line.

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On Sep 19, 4:13*pm, "Elle" <Honda.lion...[at]gmail.com> wrote:
- quote -

Actually, Medicare does pay for some nursing home care, although it is
quite limited. Here is a blurb I found on the Internet that describes
it.

In order for a nursing home stay to be covered by Medicare, you must
enter a Medicare-approved "skilled nursing facility" or nursing home
within 30 days of a hospital stay that lasted at least three days.

The care in the nursing home must be for the same condition as the
hospital stay. In addition, you must need "skilled care." This means a
physician must order the treatment and the treatment must be provided
daily by a registered nurse, physical therapist, or licensed practical
nurse.

Finally, Medicare only covers "acute" care as opposed to custodial
care. This means it covers care only for people who are likely to
recover from their conditions, not care for people who need ongoing
help with performing everyday activities, such as bathing or
dressing.

Note that if you need skilled nursing care to maintain your status (or
to slow deterioration), then the care should be provided and is
covered by Medicare. In addition, patients often receive an array of
treatments that don't need to be carried out by a skilled nurse but
which may, in combination, require skilled supervision.

For example, the potential for adverse interactions among multiple
treatments may require that a skilled nurse monitor the patient's care
and status. In such cases, Medicare should continue to provide
coverage.

Once you are in a facility, Medicare will cover the cost of a semi-
private room, meals, skilled nursing and rehabilitative services, and
medically necessary supplies. Medicare covers 100 percent of the costs
for the first 20 days.

Beginning on day 21 of the nursing home stay, there is a significant
co-payment ($128 a day in 2008). This copayment may be covered by a
Medigap policy. After 100 days are up, you are responsible for all
costs.

Dave

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"Gil Faver" <rowdy'sboss[at]xxyz.com> wrote
- quote -

Yes. To be more exact, Medicaid picks up much of what
Medicare would not cover for older, impoverished folks.
Generally speaking: Medicare is health insurance (long term
care and some things excluded) for everyone 65 and older who
paid into the system xyz amount over the years. Medicare is
funded exclusively by the federal government (via federal
tax dollars). The Feds set the rules for Medicare.

Medicaid is health insurance (including nursing homes as
needed) for the poor and may occur simultaneous with
Medicare. Medicaid is funded jointly by the states (via
state tax dollars) and the federal government (via federal
tax dollars). One consequence is that each state has
somewhat different rules for qualifying for Medicaid.

I write the above based on experience with a few relatives,
both poor and wealthy, over a few decades, per training by
my father and increasing "hands on" experience. The
Wikipedia entries for Medicare and Medicaid elaborate quite
a bit more. My posts here are by no means complete as to
what each program does.

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"Elle" <Honda.lioness[at]gmail.com> wrote in message
news:CBUAk.26457$QF5.2158[at]newsfe08.iad...
- quote -

Does Medicaid cover poor, old folks who are on Medicare?

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"Gil Faver" <rowdy'sboss[at]xxyz.com> wrote
- quote -

Medicare does not pay for room and board at a nursing home.
Typically nursing homes advertise their daily rates for a
private or semi-private room. The daily rate is what a
nursing home resident pays either out of pocket or, if
eligible, through Medicaid. One has to meet low income tests
to qualify for Medicaid.

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