"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> writes:

- quote -

OK, I paraphrased. Here again is the exact quote from your previous post:

"We try to get a month's supply at a time, so we only have to do it
once a month. I don't see how that should be a problem for anyone."

Well, I'm done with this thread. You've repeatedly said you don't
understand this, and yet attempts to explain that some people simply
have different spending patterns and correspondingly different needs
for financial services than you do seem to be getting nowhere, so I
give up.

-Sandra the cynic

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"Sandra Loosemore" <noreply[at]frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m3r68m2dd0.fsf[at]frogsonice.com...
- quote -

First of all, I don't know where you get the idea I don't understand this
instrument. I understand it perfectly. What I don't understand is why some
people would use it. That non-understanding is entirely different from the
one you wrongly attribute to me. Second, I don't have a clue why you've
taken this so personally, unless you have some insecurity about your amount
of debit card use. If you want to use your debit card, go ahead. I feel very
fortunate that I don't have one.
- quote -

I never asked any such thing. When you decide to get in a huff about things,
perhaps it would be better if you didn't misread stuff.

- quote -

I use a credit union. We don't have fees. And I get a friendly face - one I
know. *shrug*

Elizabeth Richardson

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"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> writes:

- quote -

I'm not sure why you want to insult everyone who uses a financial instrument
you admit you don't understand, either.

- quote -

Maybe this is a confusion about terminology? You don't seem to be
familiar with this concept at all, so let me explain. I have what
E-Trade calls a "debit card", but it's an ATM card. I take it to the
ATM, punch in my PIN, get money. I can also use it for POS purchases
with a PIN, and get cash back if I choose. I tend to do the latter
more often than the former, since it means I can just replenish my
cash supply when I'm checking out at the supermarket instead of making
another stop at an ATM. I don't tend to use the debit card for any
other purchases. So what if I'm losing the float on $15 worth of
groceries by putting it on the debit card instead of a credit card?
Like I said, my time is worth something, too.

E-Trade doesn't charge fees for ATM withdrawals, and refunds the fees
charged by other banks for use of their ATM machines, so for me both
types of transactions are free. But, a lot of banks don't offer free
ATM transactions at other banks' machines like that; in that case,
you're certainly better off getting cash back when you make a purchase
with your debit card, than getting socked with the $2 ATM fee.

- quote -

Right, *your* cash needs are minimal. But you clearly asked why
everyone couldn't do the same as you in terms of going to the bank in
person during business hours once a month.

- quote -

OK, if you don't mind paying higher fees at a brick-and-mortar bank than
I do at my internet bank, that's fine with me. *shrug*

- quote -

So, given that the merchants are raising prices anyway and you pay the
same price whether it's with cash, credit card, or debit card, why does
it even matter which form of payment you use? You're not saving anything
by boycotting debit cards.

-Sandra the cynic

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"Sandra Loosemore" <noreply[at]frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m33al24gj0.fsf[at]frogsonice.com...

- quote -

I'm not sure why you've chosen to get into a pissing contest with me. Why do
you take exception to this? I didn't say I don't undertand debit cards, I
don't understand the *point* of debit cards, meaning I don't understand why
someone would use a debit card rather than a credit card. In your other
posts in this thread, you've said you use a debit card (not an ATM card?)
for getting cash. Since using a credit card for getting a cash advance is
not a good financial decision, I don't think you can attribute that activity
to the above statement. Sandra, we're talking about *buying* things with a
debit card. Do you not even understand the premise of the thread?

- quote -

I guess it depends on how much cash you're spending. I don't go to food
trucks, food courts, little ethnic restaurants, etc. We eat good wholesome
food at home. I clearly stated my cash needs are minimal.

- quote -

Sandra, the price increase I was referencing isn't at the banks. The
merchants are being charged a fee to process debit card purchases. Where do
you think they get the money to pay that fee? The business man (or woman)
covers his expenses through the price he charges to the purchaser. Even
those who pay cash, pay this additional expense. (The business pays its
taxes through that price, too. Oil taxes, even windfall profits taxes, will
be paid at the pump by you and me.)

Elizabeth Richardson

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On Aug 18, 10:09*am, BreadWithS...[at]fractious.net wrote:

- quote -

Thanks for correcting my understanding...

- quote -

I guess all of my analysis only applies to the first 3
months, then.

- quote -

Agreed!

Anoop

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anoop <ghanwani[at]gmail.com> writes:

[rounding-up cards]

- quote -

I think what you're missing here is that the cash you get
transferred to your savings account in these schemes is
your *own* cash! If you are at a point of sale and buy
someting for, say, $19.50, the cards round up the transaction
to an even $20 and transfer the difference to your savings
account. That extra 50 cents is not a gift from the bank.
It's your *own* money that you'll then pay for when you
get your credit card bill. If you're carrying a balance,
it's even more of a travesty - you may be paying double-digit
interest on it!

Bank of America's program, probably the most widespread
version of this, is called "Keep the Change" and it applies
specifically to their *debit* card, which sucks money
from your checking account. So what this does is when
you make a transaction, they round the transaction up to
the nearest dollar and transfer that difference in change
from your checking to your savings account. Like you
couldn't do that yourself.

The real bonus is that for the first three months, they
will match that transfer with free cash. Then, they
start matching 5% of your transfers, up to a max total
of $250/yr.

So on that $19.50 transaction, your checking account
would get charges $20, your savings account would get
$1 (50 cents of your own, plus 50 cents match) - but
after that first 3 months, your savings account would
get 52.5 cents. If we assume that the average change
is 50 cents, then the average transaction nets you
2.5 cents. Most folks will do a lot *lot* better
with a typical 1% (or more) cash-back credit card.
Especially after those first three months!


--
Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks. The rest gets trashed.
No HTML in E-Mail! -- http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
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Sandra Loosemore <noreply[at]frogsonice.com> writes:

- quote -

She did say that she doesn't use ATMs, but you seem to
be avoiding the distinction between ATM cards and Debit
cards (which often double as ATM cards).

There's generally no good reason for someone with passable
credit and a little discipline to use a debit card for
transactions rather than a credit card. That being the
case, there's little reason at all for a debit card -
if your bank is willing to give you a regular ATM card
instead. Your security will be better (since it cannot
be used at a point of sale for a PIN-less transaction
like a typical debit card). But you can still get cash
from any of a zillion places and at all hours.

- quote -

Um, using an ATM makes perfect sense. Using a debit card
(generally instead of a credit card or your bank's ATM card)
doesn't offer any particular advantages with the possible
exception of using it at a point of sale (instead of an ATM)
to get some extra cash back on a transaction. The tradeoff,
again, is a slight security risk (and the potential to have
to dispute fraudulent charges while facing bounced checks and
such).


--
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On Aug 18, 9:15*am, Chip <chip.w...[at]ieee.org> wrote:
- quote -

I think that banks spend too much on brick and mortar, but my banks
don't charge extra for cashing a check at a teller window(if you don't
have an account, they may). Occasionally, I go in the bank to get
cash if I want some smaller bills.

--
Ron

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Sandra Loosemore wrote:
- quote -

used to higher fees for everything. So they may be just getting more
profit from fees (for their Country and Yacht Club dues) than Internet ones.

Chip

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"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> writes:

- quote -

I did thread the thread. I went back now and found the specific
quotes I was taking issue with. In particular, these are pretty strong
and sweeping statements about other people's behavior, coming from
someone who admits she doesn't even understand debit cards:

- quote -

and

- quote -

When Ron pointed out that some people find debit cards useful for
getting cash in odd places at odd times, and you came back with a
series of replies that seemed very dismissive of that, with the
implication that because *you* don't need to get cash at odd places
at odd times, it's still not a valid reason for using a debit card -- we
should all just go to the bank once a month like you do:

- quote -

But isn't withdrawing a month's supply of cash all at once even less
optimal than using a debit card for incremental withdrawals throughout
the month? You're losing the float on that cash in the meantime.
And, just speaking for myself, as a single woman in the city, I'd feel
really uncomfortable walking around with that much cash on my person,
or keeping it in my home. (I've never been mugged or robbed yet, and
don't spend a lot of time worrying about it, but I do take
common-sense precautions, and this is one of them.)

So, please: using a debit card makes perfect sense for some of us.
It's a convenience, sure, and in the old days we did have to "make do"
by going to the bank in person. But taking advantage of convenient
new banking features that make life easier is not a sign of financial
irresponsibility, IMO. My time is worth something as well, after all!

Additionally, going back to address this complaint:

- quote -

If you had your way and everybody went to the bank in person instead
of using debit cards to make ATM withdrawals, wouldn't *that* increase
prices, too? It sure costs the banks more to put human-staffed
branches everywhere than ATMs, and they'd have to find some way to
pass those costs on to customers. I'm not terribly up on the banking
business, but it seems like one reason why the internet banks are
offering better interest rates on deposits and lower fees on
transactions than brick-and-mortar banks is precisely because they
don't have those front-office costs and don't have to handle piles of
cash and coins themselves.

-Sandra the cynic

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On Aug 15, 2:02*am, "karsan2...[at]gmail.com" <karsan2...[at]gmail.comwrote:
- quote -

Let's have some fun...

The way I understand this program (at least the way I've seen it
offered), if your purchase something that costs $x.y (x dollars
and y cents), then (100 - y) gets transferred to your savings
account. The most that you can ever get with any purchase
using this scheme is $0.99. The average is probably closer
to $0.50.

If you look at a cash back credit card, most offer at least 1%,
some offer 2% on gas groceries, and depending on how much
you spend, some cards will give up to 1.5% for everything and
5% on gas and groceries. Anyway, let's go with the 1% for
now. To get $0.99 back, you'd have to purchase something
that costs $99. To get $0.50, you'd have to spend $50.

So the rules are:
- For any purchase > $99, the cash back credit card wins hands down.
- For any purchase < $50, on average, the "keep the cash" card wins.
- For any purchase > $50, on average, the cash back credit card wins.

Of course, if you have a card offering a higher cash back
percentage, say 5% for gas purchase, then you are better
off, on average, with the credit card at just a $10 purchase
price.

Overall, I think the cash back credit card wins. YMMV.

:-)

Anoop

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Sandra Loosemore <noreply[at]frogsonice.com> wrote:

- quote -

I think you are still putting words in her mouth. I just went back over her
postings on this subject. The closest I could find is that SHE doesn't need
much cash and SHE pays for most things with credit cards.
-- Doug

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"Sandra Loosemore" <noreply[at]frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m3bpzrdy06.fsf[at]frogsonice.com...
- quote -

I guess you didn't take the time to read the thread. What I said originally
is that I don't understand the need for a debit card, and then stated my
reason. You may disagree, but I haven't "asserted" that one does not need
cash. In fact, I said that we do use cash. I personally use very little
cash, but my husband uses a small amount on an almost daily basis. Neither
of us uses a debit card. I maintain that if you're going to use plastic a
credit card is a far wiser choice.

Elizabeth Richardson

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"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> writes:

- quote -

Well, your assertion was that nobody really needs to buy anything with
cash any more, therefore you can just use a credit card all the time
and never have to worry about getting cash in an odd place or at an
odd time. I'm just pointing out that your assertion is not valid for
many of us, so what business do you have telling people who find it
convenient to use an ATM card to get cash that no, they should stop
doing that and only visit their bank in person during business hours?
(As it happens, I use an internet banking service, and don't even know
where their nearest branch office even is....)

-Sandra the cynic

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"Sandra Loosemore" <noreply[at]frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m31w0ng4q4.fsf[at]frogsonice.com...
If you sincerely believe ATM cards are evil,
- quote -

Wow! I don't think I've ever used the term evil in this newsgroup to
describe anything, and I certainly haven't used it in this thread to
describe debit cards. The instances you described would be instances for
using cash, not a card of any type, so it seems pretty hard for you to
somehow assert that using a debit card could be preferable to a credit card.

No, my life isn't as busy as most of you who work for a living, nor those in
the lower-48. But planning of any sort - financial, time, parental - takes
thought. Going to my credit union to get sufficient cash takes as much
planning as do the other things in life. We try to get a month's supply at a
time, so we only have to do it once a month. I don't see how that should be
a problem for anyone.

Elizabeth

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"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> writes:

- quote -

You must live a much more constrained life than the rest of us. Don't
think the food truck where I buy lunch sometimes takes credit cards, nor
does the guy who sells books outdoors on a table in Harvard Square. A
fair number of shops I visit have posted policies like a $10 minimum for
credit card purchases, so you need cash for smaller purchases. I think
most of the fast-food chains have been taking cards for quite a while
now, but I dunno about the smaller, independent ethnic food counters I
see in the local food courts. There are at least two good sit-down
ethnic restaurants in my neighborhood that I know don't take cards at
all; I think the owners of one of them are muslims who believe such
things are sinful. If I need to tip the bellhop or shuttle bus driver
when I'm travelling, it's a lot easier to hand him a dollar bill than to
figure out how to get him a credit card payment.

And, having an ATM card means you can get the cash for such small
purchases pretty much anywhere (even in other countries, in the local
currency), anytime, instead of being constrained to visit your own bank
during business hours. If you sincerely believe ATM cards are evil,
it's your perogative not to use them, but it seems pretty arrogant to
assert that *nobody* can possibly have any valid use for them.

-Sandra the cynic

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"Ron Peterson" <ron[at]shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:ab47b828-fd87-4729-9ad5-1e8e55679e83[at]x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

I suppose, but I don't think we go anywhere that won't accept a card. I
think the only time we really *need* cash is when we buy a raffle ticket for
a non-profit something-or-other.

Elizabeth Richardson

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On Aug 16, 8:48*pm, "Elizabeth Richardson" <erich...[at]worldnet.att.netwrote:

- quote -

ATMs are handy if you need to get cash after bank hours. They also are
more convenient than trying to cash at a bank at which you don't have
an account.

--
Ron

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"Ron Peterson" <ron[at]shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:cec97679-7a48-4e67-a134-0b659fc38469[at]z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

I use the walkup window at my credit union (don't know how to use an ATM,
and have no need for such) for what small cash needs we might have, like
husband's morning coffee with the guys. I pay my tax bill by check, only
because they won't take a credit card. I use a credit card for everything
else including groceries, utility bills and insurance payments. I don't know
what rewards "points" are, but I suspect they are the same as airline miles,
which I am glad to use.

Elizabeth Richardson

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On Aug 15, 6:38*pm, "Elizabeth Richardson" <erich...[at]worldnet.att.netwrote:

- quote -

I have both a debit and a credit card from different banks.

I use the debit card for getting cash from an ATM, use the credit card
for making large retail purchases and mail order, and I use checks for
major purchases, tax payments, and utility bills. The bank for one of
my checking accounts has free electronic bill paying which I use.

There is no fee for using the bank's ATM, but there is a fee for using
other banks' ATMs.

--
Ron

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