"Douglas Johnson" <post[at]classtech.com> wrote
- quote -

I guess we could dispute "everyday," but whistle blowers are
almost by definition ethical. They often get an enormous
amount of publicity. From the CIA's Valerie Plame (and
husband; Iraq etc. WMD), to Enron's Sherron Watkins, to the
FBI's Coleen Rowley (Sept. 11 intelligence bungled), to the
Naval Academy's Gwen Dreyer (handcuffed to a urinal), to
NYPD's Robert Leuci ("Prince of the City"). Problem is, they
are generally washed up after helping set things straight at
XYZ organization. Though perhaps it is cultural, and this
can change, especially within individual professions. At
least, recent studies on medical doctors who admit fault,
apologize sincerely, offer appropriate compensation for
actual harm and explain what happened to the patient are far
less likely to be sued. Maybe not unlike that recent report
we had here of the financial advisor who made a tax advising
mistake, admitted it, apologized, and offered some
compensation?

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On 2008-06-18 12:56:31 -0700, Douglas Johnson <post[at]classtech.com> said:
- quote -

No argument from me about that. Of course, what is "ethical" means
different things to different people. I am saying that from the
standpoint of financial planning, investing, tax paying, and making
various financial plans, individuals and corporations should be judged
by the same standards.

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Don <dwzimm[at]telus.net> wrote:

- quote -

I think you are painting with far too broad a brush. I have worked for some
very ethical corporations. Ethics was and is a high priority for them.

In my mind, corporations are no more or less ethical than the people in them. So
corporations are ethical in about the same percentage and degree as people.

It is not hard to find examples of unethical behavior by either. That's what
makes the news. Everyday ethical behavior rarely gets much publicity.

-- Doug

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On 2008-06-17 16:21:09 -0700, Chip <chip.wood[at]ieee.org> said:

- quote -

True. Ethics is not a high priority in corporate America. A small
investor doing his or her best to plan for the future should not be
held to higher standards than are applied to business in general, big
or little. As far as I am concerned, financial planning for an
individual should involve taking advantage of all the tax loopholes and
using whatever legal methods can be expected to turn a profit, just as
is done by corporations.

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Don wrote:

- quote -

That has rarely stopped corporate America. If their lawyers say they
can hide it, get away with it, postpone it until you are retired, or you
have bought enough congress-critters to write a new law getting you off
the hook or even get more corporate welfare- Go for it.

Chip


======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Posters to this thread should relate comments to general financial planning.

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On Jun 15, 1:35*pm, "rick++" <rick...[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

Please clarify. Are you saying that bankruptcy can be a good thing
also?

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On 2008-06-13 16:15:08 -0700, Will Trice <wtrice[at]notmonitored.com> said:

- quote -

Agreed! It is unethical in the extreme. It should be unlawful! And if
GM or American Airlines or any of the others did any similar
self-serving act knowing that receivership was imminent, it would be
unethical in the extreme. And its should be unlawful.

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On Jun 13, 5:15 pm, Will Trice <wtr...[at]notmonitored.com> wrote:

- quote -

For everyone of these crooks I can show a several people with six
figure
hospital bills from medical emergencies. After struggling for a few
years
they take the only reasonable way out. Reform both helps and hurts
some.

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In article <4852F198.3020609[at]notmonitored.com> ,
wtrice[at]notmonitored.com says...
- quote -


- quote -


Not just unethical. It is called, "load-up," and constitutes
fraud. It can result in a creditor challenging whether that debt
should be discharged or not, in the bankruptcy. And can
potentially lead to criminal charges. Although the
debtor/petitioner probably got away with it quite often, under
the old BK rules.

I suspect that there will be a lot less such behaviour under the
new rules, with more people being pushed to Chapter 13 repayment
plans, instead of a straight liquidation.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

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On Jun 13, 6:15*pm, Will Trice <wtr...[at]notmonitored.com> wrote:
- quote -

Unethical spills over into fraud if the debtor has no intention or
reasonable expectation to pay the debt? I'm surprised nobody involved
in the bankruptcy process didn't notie the dates and raise a fuss
about this.

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Mark Bole wrote:

- quote -

Why? How many banks knew (and if they knew, acted on the knowledge) of
imminent foreclosures? I'm not saying she had filed before doing this.

- quote -

Yes, this was very good for those of us (like me) who picked up shares
of PG&E after the fall (and Edison International who had similar issues
but did not go bankrupt).

-Will

william dot trice at ngc dot com

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- quote -


The energy price crises at that time, were not of PG&Es doing. And the
state of California basically said "screw PG&E". and the governor (since
recalled) said "there is no energy problem. there is no energy price
problem. Don't bother to conserve." And then the state tried to take away
one of the most lucrative portions of PG&E. the company really had no
alternative than declaring bankruptcy, getting things back in order, and
making everyone whole.

bad example, here.

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- quote -

eventually a poor credit score would catch up with person in 7-10-15
years... assuming they needed credit again.

My take is that if a person needs credit twice or three times, they
will usually need it over and over and over.

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Will Trice wrote:
- quote -

It's odd that she could have had "imminent" bankruptcy and yet the
credit card company had no clue? Of course, the bank probably
appreciated those hefty finance charge profits they had been collecting
all along...

(My original example did not include bankruptcy).

Pacific Gas and Electric, one of the larger investor-owned energy
utilities in the country, declared bankruptcy in the aftermath of some
questionable energy price "crises" in California at the beginning of
this century, also right after re-organizing itself into a holding
company and various subsidiaries (how convenient). Shares lost 60% or
so in value but since then have rebounded back as high as ever. The
second most-screwed person after the taxpayer is the utility rate payer,
pardon my lack of objectivity.

-Mark Bole

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In article <x_a4k.7970$xZ.153[at]nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com> ,
makbo[at]pacbell.net says...
- quote -


Well, you could move out of the old house, and into a cheap
rental apartment (on a month-to-month lease), while getting set
up with a new tenant in the old house. Then apply for the
mortgage on the new house. Less pressure on all levels, since
you would have more time to shop around.


- quote -


I wonder if auto lenders might start doing something like the
credit card "universal default" idea. Which is when Bank A
(which issued your credit card) notices that you are delinquent
on a card from another bank, and then jacks up your interest
rate.

Plenty of mortgages are already on variable interest rates. So
perhaps auto lenders might start offering the equivalent of an
ARM. With the risk of fine print authorising a risk-based
increase similar to the credit card issuers?


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

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Don wrote:
- quote -

Many moons ago I had a co-worker who had gotten herself in over her head
to the point of needing to declare bankruptcy. Given that the
bankruptcy was imminent, she and her husband when on a protracted
vacation, including a trip to Disneyland, on credit with the clear
intent that this would be a "free" trip (what the heck, might as well!).
Yes, I consider this unethical behavior.

-Will

william dot trice at ngc dot com

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On 2008-06-13 08:30:19 -0700, Mark Bole <makbo[at]pacbell.net> said:
- quote -

Corporations and other businesses do stunts like this all the time.
Somehow when an individual person takes advantage of loopholes in the
law or the tax code or whatever, it is viewed as a terrible, unethical,
immoral thing, but when a big company does it it is O.K., just business.

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Ron Peterson wrote:
- quote -

True, unless it's a non-recourse loan, or maybe a lease (I'm not
familiar with the terms of most car loans). Also, depending on the
amount, the lender may find it cheaper to write off the bad debt instead
of leaving it on the books, this happens often enough.

The real point was, since the borrower knows ahead of time they are
about to trash their credit record, they can take advantage of that
knowledge.

-Mark Bole

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On Jun 12, 11:15*am, Mark Bole <ma...[at]pacbell.net> wrote:

- quote -

Walking away doesn't discharge your debt.

--
Ron

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Sometimes the free market is darned entertaining. Home
lenders let visions of wealth overwhelm the reality that
sizable downpayments tend to keep people from walking out on
mortgages. Now they get their comeuppance. Ha ha, re car
financiers! With their typically ridiculous interest rates,
they too may get their comeuppance. Though I am thinking
that car loans have "preventive measures" in them to ensure
payment or at least getting every cent possible out of the
borrower, including going after assets.

OTOH, this all tends to promotes chaos, and that's not good
for the economy as a whole. Hurting these businesses hurts
many a stock portfolio.

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