PeterL wrote:
- quote -


The account was a cash reserver created the same day as the original
rollover request (the one that didn't happen) specifically for the
purpose of this rollover. I always keep each rollover in a distinct
account, and move each rollover into cash reserves to start until I
figure out my investment plan for each batch of money.

On Dec 18, 1:56 pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...[at]nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

- quote -

agreed.

On Dec 18, 2:55 pm, PeterL <po.n...[at]gmail.com> wrote:
- quote -

OP,

In regards to this, was the transfer set to be "in-kind" or
liquidated?

kastnna wrote:
- quote -


The paperwork was simply not sent, but I was told that it had been, and
was repeatedly given bogus status reports about where things stood. It
seems possible that if I continued to go along with things, the rollover
would never have happened.

By the way, once I executed the paperwork the rollover took 4 days start
to finish.


- quote -

I agree. I will ask for reimbursement but won't get sucked into an all
out battle over it. As somebody pointed out, I could have left my money
where it was until my investments turned around. I chose not to because
I became nervous about this broker, whose ethics I'd begun to question,
having access to my money, so I decided to give my market timing a best
shot to pull out when I did. Unfortunately things are nowhere near as
stable now as they were in October.

On Dec 18, 4:00 am, Poe <haun...[at]terrible-thought.com> wrote:
- quote -


The market tanks whether you rolled it over or not. So had you rolled
it over and invested it in something that tanked with the market,
wouldn't the result have been the same? You have to be able to show
that you'd intended to roll it over to something that would not have
tanked along with the market, and that's a tough one to show.

On Dec 17, 6:54 pm, PeterL <po.n...[at]gmail.com> wrote:
- quote -

Rollover delays are very common, although rarely for the OPs reason (I
hope). Normally, the paperwork is processed quickly and it is the
company currently holding the funds that drag their feet. Like you
said, it is possible that the paperwork could have been executed
flawlessly and it still could have taken three weeks. According to the
OP, the paperwork was not sent it. This sounds like a violation of the
SECs "best execution" practices.

- quote -

Personal gain will only prove intentional fraud, not oversight. An
"honest mistake" is a mistake all the same and brokers can be (have
been) found liable.

I agree the OP may definitely have trouble proving "damages". This may
be a question better suited to Cal.

"kastnna" <kastnna[at]auburnalum.org> wrote
- quote -

I am accusing FINRA of nothing other than its members and
staff come from the very industry it is tasked to regulate.
At a minimum there is some appearance of a conflict of
interest.

But do not force me into a corner I do not occupy. All along
I believe I have said FINRA is something to consider. It
would not be my first choice if the damages appeared to be
high, though.

- quote -

Neither do I.

I said what I wanted to say. With all due respect to you, I
do not want to test the uncompensated moderators' patience.

On Dec 17, 5:40 pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...[at]nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
- quote -

Since when has the burden of proof been on the accused? We haven't
proved relativity either, but in the absence of evidence to the
contrary we accept it as true. A requisite of most good conspiracies
is that they can't be proven in the affirmative any more so than in
the negative.

To some extent I agree that arbitration should not prevent escalation
to a civil court (it does not prevent criminal trials, even now).

- quote -

The gov't of course. The FCC, USDA, FDA, FAA, and FTC all come quickly
to mind. They serve the same purpose as SROs except that they are
gov't appointed (which inexplicably makes them more "trustworthy" in
the eyes of some).

- quote -

I don't follow.


- quote -

You're right and the regulatory boards work to weed them out (its no
different with the AMA or ABA). To blame a regulatory agency for not
stopping an incompetent worker prior to offense is a daunting task no
matter what the industry. If a lawyer passes the bar is the the ABA
supposed to know he is not a good lawyer BEFORE he mishandles a case?
How can the FAA know that a certified pilot with no past problems is
going to crash a plane? I son't see how the case is any different for
a CFP. The only feasible answer I can surmise is to have tougher
requirements to practice (which I am not opposed to).


- quote -

I dont make that assumption (at least not in every case). I never said
it "required" that attitude (I was asking out loud, not stating fact).
A healthy dose of caution is usually a good thing. But my experience
with people tells me that there is more than a few that have entered
an arbitration meeting with the attitude that they were gonna get
screwed. People who "wear their emotions on their sleeves" don't tend
to do well in arbitrations or courtrooms. To win over a judge, it is
smarter to appeal to logic and reason than emotion.

On Dec 18, 6:00 am, Poe <haun...[at]terrible-thought.com> wrote:

- quote -

Let me take a second to clear up some potentially confusing diction.
The "plan trustee" is a fiduciary appointed to monitor and make
decisions on behalf of the trust. The average 401k participant will
likely never Speak to the actual plan trustee. The employer also
usually has a "plan administrator". This is usually some HR sap
appointed by the trustee that handles paperwork and day-to-day
operations (loan requests, new enrollments, ROLLOVERS, etc). Lastly
there is a "plan advisor" that convinced the company to use "his"
401k. He often enrolls employees, advises management about what funds
to carry, recommends plan amendments, etc.

I was initially surprised when you said the plan advisor was handling
the rollover as usually it is the plan admins duty. I suspect the only
reason he would be involved would be to try and get your rollover
business. But perhaps this is why the plan admin (and by proxy the
employer) has had a "hands-off" approach so far.

Ordinarily your beef should lie with the plan admin, but in this case
it sounds as if the CFP shot himself in the foot by trying to capture
your rollover dollars.

Poe wrote:
- quote -

See but it does matter, or at least, this 10% loss may be the same
outcome you would have seen anyway. If your 401k investments are the
same as those in the IRA (or very similar in asset class), you'd have a
near-10% loss today, regardless of how quickly the rollover had been
processed. That's just what happened to the stock market recently, and
to all of us who aren't blessed with perfect market-timing skills.

Similarly if you hadn't left this job, you would have had a 10% loss in
your 401k, barring any change in investments.

Now if you're saying that you planned a major shift in investment
strategy that would have avoided the loss, such as going to 100%
cash...well that would be hard to prove. Why didn't you make the change
in the 401k mix, while awaiting the rollover? If the market had gone up
10% during the delay would you have kept the money?

Regarding the complaint itself, you might be interested in reading up on
the recent Supreme Court Case "LaRue v. DeWolff, Boberg & Associates"
(google that) which involved a failure to execute instructions. Not the
same set of facts, but the underlying issue is the liability of
different parties to the plan participant (you). If nothing else it's a
road map to the complaint process itself, for a rare one that made it to
the highest court in the US.

Your written complaint, and the email paper-trail you described, should
trigger a response from the broker-dealer's OSJ. Failing that, as others
posted, FINRA is an outlet for complaints against registered
representatives of B/D firms...given that this is a 401k plan, you might
poke around on the Department of Labor site as well. You'd be lucky to
find a lawyer to take the case though, absent evidence of widespread and
systemic bad-behavior - there may be no actual damages.

-Tad

redmonds[at]sprynet.com wrote:
- quote -


This has crossed my mind (the bad guys being the plan trustees). They've
become extraordinarily quiet since this has soured, and were exceedingly
unhelpful before that.

PeterL wrote:
- quote -


Wait - I am talking about the rollover amount only. For the sake of
argument, let's say I was rolling over something that had been, for the
months before and after my attempt, $110K. But due to the several month
drag this person put on it and the market finally tanking in early Dec.,
the final amount was $100K. It does not matter what I would have
invested it in.


What benefits did this
- quote -


I don't know why he would do this. On the one call I had with him he
explained he got some benefit from having more assets under his control,
and thus was hopeful I would keep mine under his management. I don't
know if this would be a reason to pretend a rollover had been initiated
and then to lie about its status (in writing) going forward until
cornered. It makes no sense to me either.

On Dec 17, 1:01 pm, Poe <haun...[at]terrible-thought.com> wrote:
- quote -

Frankly rollover delays are not so unusual, depending on the company.
I have had similar issue with my 401K company, one account took a lot
longer than another one. But then again one account rolled over
quickly. So even with the same company different accts. can be
different.


As for what you would have gained or lose because of the delay, forget
about it. You'll have to prove what your intentions were had the
funds been transferred in time for you to invest in whatever you
intended to invest in. Hindsight is 100%. What benefits did this
broker gain by delaying this transfer? Did he make additional money
the longer your acct. stayed? I doubt it. So he had no material gain
by delaying (intentionally?) the fund transfer.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:01:49 -0600, Poe <haunted[at]terrible-thought.comwrote:

- quote -

trustee and/or your former employer directly. The basis for this
thought is that these are the people who have dumped your process into
the hands of a brokerage firm that is not operating in your interest
rather than providing appropriate administrative services to employees
and former employees. It is presumably the case that the brokerage
firm in question is operating as an agent (contractor) to the trustee
(and hence to the employer).

I could not even remotely suggest that there is anything illegal here,
but it seems certainly incompetent. You might consult an attorney
regarding the fiduciary duties of the trustee and the employer,
however.

"kastnna" <kastnna[at]auburnalum.org> wrote
- quote -

Prior to the elaboration, I was mostly worried about the
possibility of evidence disappearing.

- quote -

I can't say we have evidence that FINRA acts unbiased,
either. Maybe FINRA does. But fact is much in the securities
and exchange world goes unreported. Plus since arbitration
typically disallows further legal action, we have no idea
whether complainants were treated fairly relative to what an
independent attorney might do.

- quote -

But kastnna, replaced by whom?

The very people and firms FINRA is supposed to regulate
provide the replacements.

No comment on the CFP Board.

- quote -

Yes, it is. It's also bad business for a brokerage firm to
have an incompetent working for it. But it happens.

- quote -

I think this is a non sequitur. Assuming bias may also be
the same as proceeding with caution. It does not require an
attitude such as you propose, and it does no harm to "caveat
emptor" particularly when there is at a minimum an
appearance of "the fox guarding the henhouse."

Still, since the OP appears to be mostly interested in
righting a wrong (and not money), I can see FINRA inter alia
doing some good here.

The next step would be to contact his compliance department. While
they may be "on his side", they are also aware that if their suggested
remedy to your reasonable complaint does not suffice, you will
escalate the proceedings. That then includes them in any further
scrutiny, which they don't like. You should also contact the CFP board
of standards (http://www.cfp.net/learn/complaint.asp), FINRA (https://
apps.finra.org/Investor_Information/Complaints/complaintCenter.asp),
and possibly the SEC (http://www.sec.gov/complaint/
selectconduct.shtml)

Contrary to unsubstantiated "good ol' boy" theories, there is no
evidence that either FINRA or the Certified Financial Planners Board
of Standards routinely acts in a bias manner. In doing so they would
undermine their own authority and credibility until they were
eventually replaced. Its just bad business. I'm sure there are a few
bad apples, but if you think that problem is isolated to SRO's you are
naive. Logic suggest that SROs will actually experience less bias than
gov't agencies because they have more to lose and more easily usurped
(no one can replace the gov't except the gov't).

Remember, if you end up in arbitration, records are your best friend!
You seem to be doing well so far. Don't just show up and fervently
recap your side of the story. That comes off as hotheaded and crazy.
Think about what the people on Judge Judy do and then do the opposite
of that:-) Bring emails (with full headers), letters, notes on phone
convos (including date and time), market summaries over that time
period, possibly even statements from the other parties to corroborate
your account.

[aside: I wonder how many valid complaints have been botched by the
plaintif because they assumed there was going to be bias and as a
result presented a defensive attitutude towards the arbitrators.] I've
heard one or two whilst sitting around the campfire.

Poe, it seems to me that delays like this, by financial firm
representatives and involving rollovers, have been reported
here in the past. Naturally and justifiably, the owners of
the accounts indicate much frustration. Also if memory
serves, people here have reported that it affected financial
decisions they wanted to make sooner rather than later.

I would find out the status of this rollover first. Then I
would make a decision as follows:

1.
If I truly had no interest in recovering something like
"damages," and for the fastest response, ask the firm
whether they have a compliance department and to whom you
should go with a complaint of unethical and possibly illegal
conduct. Maybe tell this division, politely (which sounds
like your approach anyway) that you are halfway to filing a
complaint with FINRA at this point. You are in the right,
from what you say below.

2.
If you want compensation for your apparent losses, then I
would give FINRA.org a chance. They have an online section
for complaints:
https://apps.finra.org/Investor_Info...aintCenter.asp

Of course, you could do both. IMO the firm's knowing that
FINRA is involved may lead to more correction on its part
than otherwise.

While I and I imagine others will rightly sympathize with
your losses, I would hesitate to argue that you have lost
money because of this rep's actions, but only because
documenting that you absolutely intended to pull money out
of the stock market (before the stock market "corrected")
after the rollover is difficult. Also, rollovers can take
some time, and meanwhile, from my reading here, the investor
is kinda stuck with it staying in whatever vehicle it was
originally invested. Plus, markets correct, but
historically, they come back. Unless you needed all of this
money for the short term, I would not get too down about it.

Good for you for sending the registered letter. Good for you
for not letting this go by unremarked. This representative's
behavior seems to me at a minimum incompetent. You do a
service to his firm by pursuing corrective action. I agree
you will be helping other people who work with this firm.

I am sure updates will help others. Good luck.

Poe wrote:
snip for brevity
- quote -

Elle wrote:
- quote -


I am primarily after an honest explanation of what was done to me, and
to prevent anyone else from having the same problem. I think what was
done was at least unethical, and it may be illegal. If so I think the
broker should face disciplinary action of some sort. I'd love to be
reimbursed for the lost value of my portfolio (I lost about 10%
depending on what day the rollover check would have been cut had he
acted in a timely manner), but I cannot afford an attorney right now so
I think I am stuck eating the loss. I will try on my own, but I realize
I will probably lose.

My issue in a nutshell is this:

I called the 401K plan administrator of my plan and asked to initiate a
rollover. The said I needed to obtain the rollover forms from my former
employer, so I contacted a plan trustee from my former employer. She
said I had to work with "their 401K guy", and forwarded me to an
employee of a brokerage firm - so we have 4 entities involved here - me,
my former employer, the 401(k) plan administrator, and this broker person.

I asked him for the rollover forms and he requested we talk first to
tell me of all the services he could perform for me if I rolled my money
into his firm instead my preferred form where I was aggregating my
financial assets. I allowed him to call me with his pitch, then I said
"thanks but no thanks", and asked for the rollover form. He sent it to
me, I completed the form, directing the distribution to an account at my
preferred broker, signed it, and faxed it back.

From that day on I periodically inquired about the status of my
rollover. This was mid October, and the market was strong and my
investments up. In his responses to my queries, he'd send me status,
always indicating progress - examples of status (without the specifics):
the rollover forms were complete and sent to the plan admin; the plan
admin had everything they needed and were processing; he talked to them
and they were getting ready to cut a check any day; it would just be
another day or so; and so on... such were the nature of his status
emails, in which he at times specifically named the plan administrator.
No room for ambiguity or confusion.

As October came to a close, and we had a slowdown in November, I became
worried about my investment positions. I ramped up my emails in number
and intensity, expressing dissatisfaction with this guy, and concern.
Every time I complained to the trustee about his she redirected me back
to him (sigh).

Finally I called the plan admin myself to find out what was going on.
They had no record of any rollover attempt. No calls from this person on
my behalf. No record of any of the things he said he did, or of the
conversations he said he had.

I emailed him back, confused. He went silent. Now I was really becoming
angry. I sent a registered letter with a documented time line, nailing
him down with dates, copies of his emails, and I included the plan
administrator and the plan trustees on the distribution. A picture was
now emerging to me that he'd been dishonest, but I wasn't sure why or
how, exactly.

He sent me a big long rambling email a few days after my letter. It
seemed in response to it I guess, but it ignored the time line, or what
was said in his prior email messages re: status over and over. In this
new version of events, he was doing something internally at his firm
supposedly on my behalf, and he didn't realize I wanted to rollover to
my preferred broker, he thought I wanted to keep using him, he was
surprised that I wanted to end our relationship (his word; I'd never
heard of the guy before), and that he just realized my real intentions
when I finally called the plan administrator and found no record or the
paperwork or calls he alleged. He wrapped the email in a lot of fluff
about how much his other clients love him, and if I talked to them I'd
realize what a great guy he is.

At any rate, the second version of events had at least three points that
clearly contradicted what he said in prior emails, and they were points
very relevant to the failure of this rollover in a timely manner, and
thus my lost opportunity.

Let me know any thoughts on if this represents any form of ethics
violation, or if it is just creepy behavior. I am not sure I'd go as far
as to say it was illegal, but I just don't know. I am therefore now in
fact finding mode.

Thanks,
-P


======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Please trim the post to which you respond. Also see the weekly post, "Posting to misc.invest.financial-plan". Thank you for participating.

Are you after money? Or are you hoping the next customer of
this firm does not have the same experience you had? Or
both?

If you are after money--
Ideally, first consult an attorney who is independent of
FINRA, cfpnet or similar and so has no potential conflicts
of interest; someone who works for you and no one else on
this case, and so s/he will put teeth into her/is actions.
FINRA is formed by the same people it is supposed to
regulate. Sure, its staff may be completely bias free.
Problem is, FINRA's staff overwhelmingly do have, or have
had, connections to brokerage firms. I believe their mission
is to work for a free marketplace (which means fully honest
transactions yada between its members and customers like
yourself). But it's not the first place I would go, ideally.

For the same reasons, at present I would not go anywhere
near your brokerage firm's compliance officer. In fact, I
would say nothing further to anyone in your brokerage firm
right now.

If you are not so much after money, and indeed you are
worried about attorney fees, and also you want the firm to
shape up, I would consider www.FINRA.org 's resources for
arbitration.

A good attorney will be able to state upfront that (1)
his/her fees may either be larger than the amount you stand
to win; or (2) your case is so strong s/he'll win both the
amount you lost and ensure the court orders the brokerage
firm pay his fees.

You could also consider elaborating on the problem here, in
relative anonymity, and get people's impressions. Maybe
someone has had the same problem you are having with this
firm.

Disclaimer: I have never worked in the investment industry
or any financial service industry. I am an individual
investor who has invested in stocks, bonds, CDs etc. for
some 20+ years.

On Dec 17, 4:20 am, Poe <haun...[at]terrible-thought.com> wrote:
- quote -


Why not complain to the brokerage firm?