Daniel T. wrote:

- quote -

I think someone here mentioned this approach, more for a teen. They get
an amount for clothing, geared toward a reasonable brand, and they need
to use their own money (earned, saved from allowance, whatever) if they
want to upgrade. I liked that idea.
For my 9 year old, I try to point out the cost of packaging. For
example, Friendly's half gallon (which now equals 1.75qt) was on sale
but one get one free, so 2/$6. She saw a single serving size, about 4oz,
for $2, and I held up both, "this is $2, and this is $3" I told her.
She saw the $6 would be ice cream for tonight's desert, or for the week
given the size difference.
JOE
www.joetaxpayer.com

"Elle" <honda.lioness[at]nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

- quote -

Elle, it almost seems like you are making Tad's point for him.

- quote -

Also from that site:

... a bad credit history or no credit history could result in:
1. Not getting the automobile you what. You could end up in a
junker.
2. Not getting the ring or wedding you want for your spouse, which
could end up in no spouse.
3. Not getting the house you want for your spouse, which again
could end up in no spouse.
4. Not getting the job you want because of spotty credit, which
could destroy your upward mobility.

The message is clear from the above. You should borrow money to get a
decent car, decent spouse, decent place to live and a decent job. That
isn't the message I want to teach my children.

- quote -

But nowhere on that site does it even imply that you should pay cash for
your car.

- quote -

I posted an example of one of these curricula. When my daughter had to
make a budget for her class assignment, she had to spend at least 20% of
her income on a car payment. I'm not so sure that others here would
overwhelmingly approve of such a move.

- quote -

Corporations aren't people, the same rules don't apply. Nobody cares if
one corporation kills another for example. And as the latest scandal
(sub-prime mortgages) shows us, the little guy is going to be blamed in
any case.

"Daniel T." <daniel_t[at]earthlink.net> wrote
- quote -


This made me laugh aloud. :-) I really like the firmness,
and indeed maybe that's a large part of good parenting--not
yielding to little minds that do not know what is good for
them and so are "in training," with the parent as teacher.

I am confident your example above teaches the sort of
discipline that gets kids away from the "instant this and
instant that" mindset and gives them a greater appreciation
of "things." For me as an adult, just going camping the
other weekend gave me a little more appreciation for so much
I tend to take for granted!

Disclaimer: I have not raised kids. I do not plan to raise
kids. ;-)

"Elle" <honda.lioness[at]nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

- quote -

In that vain... I would like to hear other's opinions on the subject. Be
sure to specify age ranges that you think the advice is good in.

One that I used when my kids were under about 10 or so. "If you ask for
it in the store, you will definitely not get it." This tended to make
for much quieter trips, with the kids pointing out particular kinds of
candy or toys as being interesting, but the grabbing it and asking me
"can I have it?" over and over was gone. For grocery trips, this rule
got them involved in the pre-trip planning, "Did you remember m&m's? The
candy jar is low." :-)

On Nov 15, 5:12 am, "Sgt.Sausage" <nob...[at]nowhere.com> wrote:
- quote -

Also depends what is covered in the class- could be many many things
(and as a resident of Ohio and with twins on the way, I think this is
a good thing).

Personal finance-

balancing a checkbook
use of credit

earning power
investing in future (education or a trade)
college finances

taxes
tax brackets
tax deductions
income taxes
business taxes

investing
savings
compound interest

then the relationships between investing and taxes
relationship between saving and use of credit
and the list goes on...

Part of issue is having the math skills to do this
Part of issue is knowing the tools to do this
Most of issue is making financial decisions, and understanding how
making financial decisions as part of a group and not on spur of the
moment will affect you. It was real easy for me to make decision when
I was single. The day my wife moved in with me things got complicated
times 4 it seemed. Getting married made it slightly harder...and I
can say I am proud of progess wife and I have made in 5 years of being
married. With twins on the way, I am finding the decisions getting
even harder than before (how much to retirement and how much to
increase household costs). There is no way these decisions can be
taught, and I doubt at age of 17 I would have listened to any advice
people gave about finances for when you have kids.

My prior posts to S. Sausage et al. state that the main path
to financial (and other) "education" takes place through
parental influence at the dinner table, after school, etc. I
am confident classes in personal financial planning will do
more good than bad, but I also strongly believe that /Thee
Solution/ does not lie in these classes' mere existence.

On the applied front, one of my favorite "financial
education" stories is from a parent I met last winter. He
gives his young boys a small allowance. He has told them he
will pay for their clothes at Wal-Mart. If they want "nicer"
clothes, they have enough money in their allowance to
"upgrade" to the name brands at the popular chain stores. He
asks them to choose, "Do you want a pair of Levis from the
Gap? Or will Rider jeans from Wal-Mart do, so you can then
save your allowance for a trip to the amusement park?"

It's a shame we do not see more talk of solutions that work
here. Teaching someone is not easy. I suspect discussion is
further complicated because our culture is rife with the
"instant this, instant that" mentality.

"Tad Borek" <borekfm[at]pacbell.net> wrote
- quote -


- quote -

Tad, your main point seems to be that industry will fight
any effort that will stem Americans' indulgence in financial
gluttony, since such indulgence is a part of industry's
profits. Yet instances abound of the government promoting
individual Americans' financial restraint and so seemingly
defying any industry lobby effort. For example, in the vein
of your concerns about the auto industry, and from the
federal government (linked from its financial education
site, mymoney.gov), we see, "It might seem glamorous to own
a Mercedes-Benz, but if it causes you to go bankrupt perhaps
it's not so glamorous after all."
(http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/consum...005/tales.html)
Private industry itself often promotes caution in financial
planning, even when it would seem to go against its
interests. At
http://www.bankofamerica.com/financi...vehicle_basics ,
we see one of the biggest banks in the country discouraging
people from buying too much automobile, even though the more
it has on loan, the more it stands to profit.

Tad, many curricula are in place now, quite developed and
being taught in public institutions and by private industry.
They contain messages of which I think you and others here
would overwhelmingly approve. The existence of these
curricula may leave you scratching your head "Wha... ? This
sure is counter-intuitive... " But I think a careful
analysis would bring a thoughtful person to the realization
that a broke America is a low profit producing America.
That's why corporations frequently promote personal
responsibility.

Tocqueville's "enlightened self-interest" (1835, _Democracy
in America_) applied to corporations is now not just a
fashionable buzz phrase. It is also a frequent reality. It
makes sense and cents.
Financial education courses are well-publicized. Be that
horse who drinks(!), google, and then relay some substantive
comments about what actually exists, and not what you think
exists. Are the messages of these courses mostly sound?

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:12:49 -0600, "Sgt.Sausage" <nobody[at]nowhere.comwrote:


- quote -

Like Tad, I agree with you on financial education. My experience is
that the problem is not teaching people about personal finance, but
teaching them how to make good decisions.

Towards that end my favorite saying on common sense:

"Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire


-HW "Skip" Weldon
Columbia, SC

Tad Borek <borekfm[at]pacbell.net> wrote:

- quote -

I have to agree here. Our community has something called "Enterprise
Village" that all kids must attend. (If I remember right it's around 8th
grade.) It's a two week unit that ends with a field trip to a miniature
city where the kids work jobs pass money back and forth and make change.

Unfortunately, part of the unit involves kids being given a monthly
income and having to make a budget. That sounds like a good thing, but
in this budget they are *required* to spend at least 20% of their income
on car payments. Not a good message IMHO.

mike.elgers[at]gmail.com wrote:

- quote -

Careful of your sample base. :-) It may seem to you like everyone in
America is financially brain dead, but you aren't going to meet a bunch
of people who can balance a checkbook in your line of work. :-)

On Nov 15, 2:12 am, "Sgt.Sausage" <nob...[at]nowhere.com> wrote:
- quote -

I am a personal financial planner and I agree education would be a big
help. Every day I see people lacking even the most basic knowledge of
finances. Maybe if we can show kids how to balance a checkbook, not
max out credit card, etc it would help.

Bill Woessner wrote:
- quote -

Well they'll probably use canned curriculum. And I'm cynical about how
that curriculum is going to get developed. Just imagine what a
difference it would make if everyone (at age 17) was introduced to the
concept that credit cards should never never never never be used to
spend money you don't have in your checking account, and paying interest
is one of the ways The Man keeps you down. And that buying a new car is
out of reach of most Americans, from a financial point of view. And hey,
politics too..."part of personal financial planning is voting for people
who are going to do things that benefit YOU like cutting YOUR taxes."
OK, maybe not so overt...just educating people about things like how
taxes actually work.

I really doubt that these messages are going to make it in there.
Financial industry associations will be approached to help develop
materials, or will scream bloody murder if the message isn't right.
Credit cards...convenient financial innovation! A simple way of dealing
with life's little surprises (like a sale at Prada)!

And will schools in Ohio actually talk down a new car as something other
than a birthright? What is it, 15% of the state's jobs? "Daddy, at
school today they said new cars just make most people broke, why do you
work for a company that just makes people broke?"

I am not trying to slam Ohio, it would be the same in any state, just
different issues.

I also have to agree with Sgt. Sausage's observation...lead a horse to
water, etc. Education can help, but very highly educated people can
still make the dopiest financial decisions. And vice versa, of course -
you can't teach common sense (I wonder though, can you teach the
benefits of "delayed gratification"...?).

-Tad

We used to have this in senior year social studies,
called "civics". But with all academic and social
stresses on high school kids these days, this has
been dropped at many places.

Also, has managing money become more complicated
in recent decades?
When I went ot college I had two bank accounts,
and paid two bills twice a year.
Now I have around 40 accounts I manage yearly-
about a third due to employment benefits and another
third due to homeownership.
Plus with the "personal responsibility" revolution there
must be at least 20 different ways to open accounts for
this or that tax incentive.

On Nov 15, 5:12 am, "Sgt.Sausage" <nob...[at]nowhere.com> wrote:
- quote -

Agreed, but for a different reason. What reason do we have to believe
that public school teachers are capable of teaching personal finance?
If the state of mathematics education is any indiciation, attempting
to teaching personal finance isn't going to do a whole lot of good.
The public schools may have seriously reduced illiteracy in this
country, but we're still rife with innumeracy. Besides which, I think
it would be a serious case of the blind leading the blind.

For any public school teachers reading this, I also want to go on
record: I don't think all public school teachers are bad. I had
several great teachers throughout the years (including a 4th and 5th
grade teacher with a PhD, which I always thought was odd). But based
on my experience, there are far more bad teachers than good.

--Bill

- quote -

Ohio high schools to include personal finance courses:

" ... The solution: mandatory personal finance classes
in high school. That's going to happen in 2010, the result
of a bill sponsored by Ohio Treasurer Richard Cordray. "

http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=7335026

"... 'I think it's one of the most beneficial things they'll take because
the topics that we teach they're going to use for the rest of their
life,' Guilfoyle says..."

Elle -- does that satisfy your concern about education?

I think we can both agree that this may just be a GoodThing(tm),
however ...

I'm going on record now: We'll *still* have large numbers
of folks who can't run their personal finances. Education
helps, but it ain't good 'nuff. You can lead the horse to
water, but ya can't make him drink it.