In article <VWmPh.10665$JZ3.4248[at]newssvr13.news.prodigy.net> ,
"Mark Freeland" <BnetOnewsX[at]sbcglobal.net> wrote:

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I read over that 100 times and still missed that wording, thanks for
pointing it out.


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Thanks for the reference.

--
-Ernie-

"Elle" <honda.lioness[at]nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:AotPh.19767$Jl.2474[at]newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
- quote -

You can't conclude this from Worksheet 2-3. The worksheet doesn't address
the penalty; it merely computes the amount that is taxable aside from
penalty.

Consider someone who has only a traditional IRA (say $10K), converts it to a
Roth, and withdraws the $10K the next year. According to the IRC, this
withdrawal is not taxed, but is subject to the 10% penalty.

Lines 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 are all $10K (the even lines are 0). Line 10, the key
line, is $10K (the amount that was taxed upon conversion). That makes line
11 $0, thus line 15 is $0, and bottom line 16 is $0.

Alternatively, consider the fact that certain nonqualified distributions are
exempt from the penalty (e.g. first home purchase). Since there are no
lines dealing with this in the worksheet, it cannot possibly be computing
the amount subject to the 10% penalty.

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Why, thank you :-)

Mark Freeland
BnetOnewsX[at]sbcglobal.net

"Ernie Klein" <ecklein[at]pacbell.net> wrote
On Roth IRA withdrawals in amounts less than original
contributions:
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Note that Figure 2-1 only indicates whether a distribution
/may/ be subject to penalty. Note: I see the IRS calls the
penalty an "additional tax" of 10% in some places. For the
computation of whether the additional tax (= penalty) may be
due, see
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p590/ch02.html#d0e10412 .
Worksheet 2-3, Line 12 and the lines around show that no tax
(10% additional or otherwise) is owed if contributions
exceed distributions blah blah.

Hence sites like http://www.fairmark.com/rothira/gendist.htm
say distributions less than contributions are not taxed nor
penalized, assuming blah blah.

Unless you read very carefully and have a very sharp mind,
you won't extract this easily from the IRS code.

In article <1175256518.497982.186870[at]d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> ,
"woessner[at]gmail.com" <woessner[at]gmail.com> wrote:

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contributions but the 10% penalty is not income tax.

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Figure 2-1 on page 64 shows 5 years AND 59 1/2.

--
-Ernie-

"Ernie Klein" <ecklein[at]pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:ecklein-408172.16251529032007[at]news.newsguy.com...
- quote -

Read further - "Distributions that are not taxable ... are not subject to
this 10% tax."

Since a distribution of post-tax money is not taxable, it is not subject to
the 10% penalty. (Note that despite the wording on this page, distributions
of Roth conversions in under 5 years, while not taxable, may still be
subject to the 10% penalty.)

Likewise, Pub 590 says that "Unless one of the exceptions listed below
applies you must pay the 10% additional tax on the *taxable part* of any
distributions that are not qualified distributions."

(If you read the Pub, you'll see that it is much clearer on when sub-5 year
Roth conversions are subject to the 10% tax, even if they are not otherwise
taxable.)
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p590/ch02.html#d0e10539

If you want to know where this comes from, you'll find it in the IRS regs,
26 CFR 1.408A-6, A-5(a), which says that the "10-percent additional tax ...
will apply ... to any distribution from a Roth IRA *includible in gross
income*."
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...fr1.408A-6.htm

Mark Freeland
BnetOnewsX[at]sbcglobal.net

On Mar 30, 5:01 am, Ernie Klein <eckl...[at]pacbell.net> wrote:
- quote -

Pub 590, chapter 2 under "Are Distributions Taxable?":

"You do not include in your gross income qualified distributions or
distributions that are a return of your regular contributions from
your Roth IRA(s)."

The latter condition is not restricted to the return of current year
contributions. You may always with draw your Roth contributions (and
conversions, after 5 years) penalty- and tax-free. Now... whether
it's a good idea or not is a completely different matter.

--Bill

In article <s4OdnbJ2b6ac-pXbnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d[at]comcast.com> ,
joetaxpayer <joetaxpayer[at]nospam.com> wrote:

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I thought that also -- that the intent of an IRA was for *retirement*
and not to be a substitute bank, thus the 10% penalty for *any*
withdrawal before 59 1/2 (or one of the few exceptions).

In addition Topic 558 from the IRS site says in part:

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc558.html

[quote]
Topic 558 - Tax on Early Distributions from Retirement Plans

To discourage the use of pension funds for purposes other than normal
retirement, the law imposes an additional 10% tax on certain early
distributions of these funds. Early distributions are those you receive
from a qualified retirement plan or deferred annuity contract before
reaching age 59 1/2...
[end quote]

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I have read here and in different threads that you can always withdraw
your contributions at any time and any age without penalty but I fail to
find anything in PUB 590 or other IRS instructions to back that up.

(I know you can withdraw your contribution without penalty in the same
*tax year* that it was made but that isn't what is being questioned).

Page 63 of Pub 590 says that you never have to include your
contributions in your income, but that does not eliminate the 10% early
withdrawal penalty, that I can see.

It goes on to say (also on page 63-65 and fig 2-1 on page 64) that
"qualified distributions" are not subject to the 10% penalty but to be
"qualified" you must be 59 1/2 or meet one of the exceptions like being
disabled or buying a 1st home.

Every IRS publication, topic and FAC that I have read leads me to
believe that if you are under 59 1/2 you are always subject to the 10%
penalty if an execption does not apply.

So where does it say (in IRS publications) that you can withdraw your
previous contribution for any reason other than one of the few
exceptions while under the age of 59 1/2 and not have to pay a 10%
penalty on the entire amount that you withdrew?

--
-Ernie-

Ernie Klein wrote:
- quote -

apparently this only applies to Roth IRAs funded with money from another IRA
or 401k or such and does not apply to money I deposit from my paycheck or
checks I send in during the year from after-tax money

there is also no tax on the withdrawal

nian wrote:
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My second post in this thread had the link;
http://www.fairmark.com/rothira/distrib.htm
which clarified this. And Elizabeth's post as well, state that your
deposits can be withdrawn any time, it's a rollover (from a regular IRA
or 401(k) that must age 5 years.
"My own money" if that's how a site phrases it, are deposits you made,
any increase in value through appreciation, stock splits, dividends, or
interest, is "earnings".

Sorry for my mis-quote in first post. Actually, Elizabeth's quote, "it
has been suggested in this forum that it may be wise to use a Roth for
your emergency fund" was something I suggested. That if one did not have
funds for both (an emergency fund and the retirement account) that
putting the emergency money in the Roth would at least create some tax
deffered growth, and if the emergency never occurred, a head start on
the retirement savings. The downside to this, is that in such a
scenario, one really doesn't have the two accounts. But I like the idea
that the funds don't feel quite so easily tapped, for the fact that they
are in an account that says 'retirement'.

JOE

Andrew Koenig wrote:
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what's the definition on "my own money" versus "earnings" ?

see this link -> http://www.fool.com/money/allaboutir...boutiras06.htm

In article <2JXNh.13331$f56.2888[at]bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> ,
"Andrew Koenig" <ark[at]acm.org> wrote:

- quote -

You are correct (see IRS PUB 590). You have to pay a 10% penalty unless
the Roth distribution is "qualified". To be qualified it has to be
after the 5 year period AND you have to be 59 1/2 or older OR the
distribution is because you are disabled, it is payable to a beneficiary
after your death, or meets the requirements for a first home.

In ADDITION to the 10% penalty you also have to pay additional tax on
any portion of the distribution attributable to earnings on
contributions. In other words, you don't get to have your money grow
tax free if you withdraw early -- it then is no better, worse in fact
because of the 10% penalty, than any other type of non-IRA account.

--
-Ernie-

Elizabeth Richardson wrote:
- quote -

thank you. that is how I suspected it should work

On Mar 26, 4:16 pm, "Andrew Koenig" <a...[at]acm.org> wrote:
- quote -

Wait a minute folks. I believe that you cannot withdraw *earnings*
from the
account till you're 59.5 etc, but *contributions* to a ROTH are post-
tax
and can be removed the same day you put them in, so far as I know,
without any tax consequence, but you cannot return them to the ROTH
except as the new contribution is still below your yearly limit.
Joe W.

joetaxpayer wrote:
- quote -

ok. not sure why I thought I could take my own money out anytime, after all, I've paid
taxes and whatnot from it already.

so, to recap, if I open a Roth IRA and send 100, then I can not take my own 100 until
5 years from day of it being applied?

not talking about the interest or earnings from the fund it may be invested in, just
my own money

if I fund the Roth IRA every month with 100, total 1200 for one year, each portion
must "age 5 years" before I can take my own money out or even a portion of it?

thanks

"nina" <ni[at]na.zn> wrote in message
news:56q24gF2afg52U1[at]mid.individual.net...
- quote -

Yes, you can withdraw your deposits at any time without penalty. In fact, it
has been suggested in this forum that it may be wise to use a Roth for your
emergency fund, although I would rather think of any type of IRA as strictly
for funding your retirement. The earnings on any deposits have limitations
as others have posted.

Elizabeth Richardson

Andrew Koenig wrote:
- quote -

I find the wording on some sites to be a bit ambiguous, but ever the fan
of Fairmark, I read this;

http://www.fairmark.com/rothira/distrib.htm

which I read to mean I am correct, with the extra warning that it's only
the deposits that come back out tax/penalty free pre-59-1/2, the
earnings are taxed/penalized. Please take a look and let me know if I am
misinterpreting their explanation.

JOE

"joetaxpayer" <joetaxpayer[at]nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dcGdnXMhVsWe2ZXbnZ2dnUVZ_r2onZ2d[at]comcast.com...

- quote -

Are you sure? My impression was that you must have held the account for 5
years, *and* be greater than age 59.5, but that they do not track individual
deposit ages.

"nina" <ni[at]na.zn> wrote in message
news:56q24gF2afg52U1[at]mid.individual.net...

- quote -

I think there's a penalty unless your age is > 59.5 years and you have held
the Roth IRA account for > 5.0 years.

nina wrote:
- quote -

You deposit (or convert) to a Roth.
The clock starts and a withdrawal must be on deposits that have aged 5
years or you will incur a penalty. If after 5 years, there is no
penalty, just the fact that you have depleted a retirement account.

The process turns out to be simple, some brokers let you transfer on
line. I manage an account for an 80 year old woman through Schwab. On
line you are able to transfer funds from the IRA (traditional or Roth)
to your regular 'cash' account. So that end of it is pretty simple.

You lose the benefit of years of compounding. I am caught between the
suggestion that you should never touch that money, and the risk that if
you feel it's untouchable, you wouldn't make the deposits in the first
place. We know nothing of the rest of your situation, though. You are
welcome to post more details.

JOE

what is the usual process of taking a withdrawal from your own funds in a Roth IRA? is
it as simple as informing the institution (T Rowe Price, Fidelity, etc) and they cut
you a check in a few business days or even deposit the amount into your checking
account?

I understand that one loses out on the benefits the money would have earned but no
biggie - or is it?

what else to be aware of? if I fund a Roth IRA today with 2500, I can request a
withdrawal any time for up to that amount?