joetaxpayer wrote:

- quote -

I have one of those cards, WaMu bought Providian and switched that
account. You get the Transunion FICO score (not credit report, but you
can get one through annualcreditreport.com). They maintain a year's
worth of old scores.

My FICO is the highest it's ever been, mostly because of improving
technology. All my required payments now have email alerts. Used to be
I'd forget a bill every now and then get a late payment on the old
report.



Brian

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- quote -

The above was from this past February. Right after the HELOC increase
and rate drop, I was offered a chance to pull $30K off a credit card at
zero interest ($75 fee) through the end of the year. Seemed an easy way
to pocket $1000 by paying this against my mortgage. For what it's worth,
WAMU offers a no-fee card which offers a free window into your FICO
score. So I applied for that card and saw my latest FICO. 746.

So for anyone wishing to be neurotic above their score, checking to see
the impact of paying down a card or loan or applying for new credit,
this is a free way to do that.

Joe

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On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 04:10:45 -0600, Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld[at]nospam.orgwrote:

- quote -

I should add to the above that our scores are in the excellent credit area.
--ron


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On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:41:07 -0600, "Daniel T." <daniel_t[at]earthlink.netwrote:

- quote -

Here's what I saw. See if you can make heads or tails of this info. To me,
(see my included notes), they make no sense at all.


=====================================
Fair Isaac: (Spouse 3% higher)

Note: Spouse has had NO installment loans in past 20+ years; I have had a
few, all paid off except one that had a few months to run at the time of
this rating.

Me:
Lack of recent installment loan information
Proportion of balances to credit limits is too high on bank revolving or
other revolving accounts
Too Many Accounts With Balances
Too many inquiries last 12 months

Spouse:
Proportion of balances to credit limits is too high on bank revolving or
other revolving accounts
Too Many Accounts With Balances
Too many inquiries last 12 months

==============================
BEACON: (Spouse rating slightly higher)
Note: Spouse has more accounts than I due to a few "store" accounts!

Me:
Account payment history is too new to rate
Too Many Accounts With Balances
Too many accounts reported

Spouse:
Account payment history is too new to rate
Too Many Accounts With Balances
Too few accounts reported
Too many inquiries last 12 months

==================================
Transunion: (Me minimally higher (2 points))
Note: We pay off our credit cards in full on the billing date. Spouse has
one or two "store cards" that she sometimes uses -- but they still get paid
off at the billing date.

Account payment history is too new to rate
Proportion of balances to credit limits is too high on bank revolving or
other revolving accounts
Too Many Accounts With Balances
Too many inquiries last 12 months

Spouse:
Amount owed on accounts is too high
Proportion of balances to credit limits is too high on bank revolving or
other revolving accounts
==============================
--ron

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"Daniel T." <daniel_t[at]earthlink.net> wrote
- quote -

If you have a reasonable suspicion of illegal lending
discrimination, call a lawyer, the ACLU, or similar, and
explain. They can legally acquire whatever is needed. This
assumes there is some foundation to your claim, and that you
can also show financial harm by the actions of FICO. If they
think you are mistaken, they'll tell you.

The burden of proof is typically on the plaintiff in
discrimination cases. Otherwise, people would make frivolous
complaints right and left against corporations and
individuals. Commerce would come to a halt. You have to be
reasonable.

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Daniel T. wrote:

- quote -

The company says it doesn't. At that point, it does kind of become up
to you to provide evidence to the contrary.




Brian

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On Feb 13, 11:50 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...[at]nospam.earthlink.netwrote:
- quote -

Funny, they don't have to prove they are following the law until I
provide evidence that I cannot legally acquire.

- quote -

I don't. I am merely making an observation.

- quote -

I don't know that they do. Do you know for a fact that they don't?

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"Daniel T." <daniel_t[at]earthlink.net> wrote
- quote -

Bring a civil rights lawsuit against the FICO company on the
basis of a suspicion for which you can provide ample
evidence, and the FICO company will be required to prove
that they are not breaking the law.

The court will not order it to disclose the formula to the
public, since the company uses the formula for a profit. But
the formula will be subject to government scrutiny, if only
by sufficient expert witnesses who do see the formula and
swear under oath it does not use gender.

Further, the FICO company likely will demonstrate why it is
women seem to have higher credit scores than men via the raw
statistics they have for women's borrowing etc. habits vs.
men's.

This also begs the question: Why do you think the FICO
company would stand to make more money by discriminating
against men, especially since the average income of males in
the U.S. is much higher than females, and so men could be
argued to have a better profit potential for lenders?

I am happy to agree to disagree with you that lenders
discriminate via the FICO formula giving females more points
just for being female.

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Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenf...[at]nospam.org> wrote:
- quote -

I must hasten to note that even though I have a larger sample base
than you to work with, the evidence is still anecdotal. It's not like
I set up a control group or even kept meticulous records. :-)

Did you find anything on the reports to explain why your wife had a
higher score? That's what gets me, why two people who have virtually
identical debt histories end up with different scores.

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On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:23:06 -0600, "Daniel T." <daniel_t[at]earthlink.netwrote:

- quote -

I only have the experience of one, but when my wife and I applied for a
mortgage a few years ago, we obtained our credit scores (provided free by
the bank -- some regulation).

There were three "types" or "brands" of credit scores: Beacon, Empirica,
and Fair Issac (FICO). There was not much difference between our scores.
The FICO score had the largest difference with my wife scoring 3.5% higher
than me.
--ron

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Daniel T. wrote:
- quote -

A great little book, "How to Lie with Statistics", by Darrell Huff, (c)
1954.

Excerpt from Ch. 10, "How to Talk Back to a Statistic".

1. Who Says So? (bias)
2. How Does (S)he Know? (self-selecting samples)
3. What's Missing? (a comparison)
4. Did Somebody Change the Subject? (the raw figure is not the conclusion)
5. Does It Make Sense? (the magic of numbers brings about a suspension
of common sense).

Or as Mark Twain was quoted, "There is something fascinating about
science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a
trifling investment of fact."

-Mark Bole

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joetaxpayer <joetaxpayer[at]nospam.com> wrote:
- quote -

These are advertised estimates, not actual formula. You certainly can't
plug anything into the percentages above to come up with a score.

- quote -

In my experience, the wealthy tend to have no better scores than the
middle class. Because of the sample base of my experience, I never saw a
poor person with good credit (they tend to buy less expensive cars than
what my dealership provided.)

Also, my comments weren't about women in general. I was comparing people
who have a shared credit history (husband and wife.) In those cases, the
woman tends to have a better score, despite the fact that they have a
shared credit history.

Before someone brings it up, I know that FICO scores are individual and
a husband and wife don't necessarily share a credit history. However,
I'm singling out cases where they *did* share a credit history, both of
their names are one all debts.

You can certainly say that the FICO doesn't take sex into account, you
can even say that the government makes sure they don't. That doesn't
change my experience. Of course my sample base might be skewed, but I
don't see how.

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Daniel T. wrote:

- quote -

FICO states the score is based on:
35% payment history
30% amounts owed
15% length of credit history
10% new credit
10% types of credit used

- quote -

You stated "I think the sex of the individual has something to do with
the score." And I think you and Elle are both right. I think they tend
toward more prudent behavior and as Elle said, risk-aversion. This leads
to the correlation of higher scores. Gender wasn't a variable in FICO's
scoring, nor is income, for that matter, but I'd presume the wealthy
tend toward better FICOs than do the poor.
JOE

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"Elle" <honda.lioness[at]nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
- quote -

I did not know that. So they do disclose the formula? Where might I see
it?

- quote -

I'm not arguing anything. There may be cultural factors that result in
women having higher scores. I wouldn't know though because I don't know
what is entailed in determining those scores.

All I have stated to date is that in my experience wives (not women in
general) have higher scores than their husbands, and after years in car
sales, I saw a lot of credit scores.

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Daniel T. wrote:

- quote -

It's not allowed to use bias in lending. If the FICO scores could
contain such bias, then lenders couldn't use them.

When you go to the FICO site, you'll find a handy pamphlet:

<http://www.myfico.com/Downloads/File...FS_Booklet.pdf
Under the heading "What FICO scores ignore", the first item is:

"Your race, color, religion, national origin, sex and marital status.
US law prohibits credit scoring from considering these facts, as well
as any receipt of public assistance, or the exercise of any consumer
right
under the Consumer Credit Protection Act."




Brian

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"Daniel T." <daniel_t[at]earthlink.net> wrote
Regarding the illegality of using race, gender, etc. in FICO
scores and when the typical bank determines loan
eligibility:
- quote -

The FICO formula is subject to government scrutiny. No
company operating in the U.S. can legally avoid this law.
Considering the many cases concerning race discrimination
and lending practices, it should be obvious that FICO would
not risk its reputation through supporting illegal lending
practices.

If you want to argue that there are cultural factors that
result in women being better risks (once all the data is
plugged into the FICO formula), then I think it is possible
that these factors are identifiable, but in a
non-discriminatory way, and end up transmitting through the
FICO formula.

Unless you wish to argue that it is discrimination against
men to count, as a part of the FICO score, paying bills on
time and having large credit card balances.

Women still pay lower auto insurance rates, and it's because
they have fewer auto accidents, which could even be said to
be an indication of the risk-aversion of women.

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"Elle" <honda.lioness[at]nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
- quote -

AFAIK,the formula used to determine the score is secret. E.i., not
subject to public or government scrutiny, so I don't see how that is
relevant.

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"Daniel T." <daniel_t[at]earthlink.net> wrote
- quote -

By federal law, lenders may not use race, gender,
nationality, or marital status (more) in determining credit
score yada. Hence FICO does not consider these. Google
{"Equal Credit Opportunity Act"} for details.

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joetaxpayer <joetaxpayer[at]nospam.com> wrote:

- quote -

I used to work at a car dealership and saw a lot of credit reports and
scores over the years. The wife almost always had a better score, even
when the principles had both names on everything. The only time her
score was lower, it seemed, is if her credit was trashed before they got
married.

I think the sex of the individual has something to do with the score.

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joetaxpayer wrote:
- quote -

A year back, we talked about FICO scoring and how different things can
impact it. I recently applied to have my HELOC rate drop (and credit
line increased). The approval came back within a few days, along with
FICO scores for the Mrs. Taxpayer and me. She is at 817 to my 766. We've
had the same accounts for our entire marriage except for a few store
cards she pays in full, and the 0% teaser card (in my name only) where I
took the $20K and put it in a 6 month 5% CD.
Now, from the above percentages, I take it that my stunt impacted amount
owed (of course), pulled down my average credit history (?), and added
new credit. So in the end I attribute 40-50 points hit due that one
move. Since FICO doesn't see positive assets such as our investment
accounts or CDs, they can't distinguish between what I did vs someone
spending the money on a trip, or any other purchase.
The report specifically says "too many inquiries" and "too many accounts
recently opened". Doesn't take much to trip those alerts I think.

I know some people go over the edge obsessing over their numbers. I
don't plan to go there, but if I did, I'm sure there are some simple
ways to gain back those 50 points.

JOE

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