joetaxpayer wrote:

- quote -

Nope, not clear. As anoop wrote, it is the issue with ISO's and AMT
that is the nasty one that affected people back in 2000. It generates
an AMT deferral item which may or may not ever be recaptured.

The issue you describe is easily avoided by exercising and selling,
since there is no incentive to hold the stock, as there is with ISO's.
What you are describing is the same as someone getting a $250K cash
bonus from their employer and immediately investing it all in one loser
stock - why would someone do that on purpose?

-Mark Bole

anoop wrote:

- quote -

In case it's not clear, the issue surrounding the Options is this; Upon
exercising, one has a windfall of ordinary income, say $250K to keep the
numbers low. Now, if the stock crashed, and many did, you have a capital
loss of say $200K. Well, you can only take stock losses to match gains,
up to $3000 that you can take off regular income, so in my example,
taxes must be paid on $247K, even if the stock is zero. The losses carry
forward, $3,000/yr or against other stock gains. I read a story about
such a man who found a woman with a $200,000 gain, and got married. (The
numbers were higher, more like in the millions, but the story doesn't
change).
JOE

PeterL wrote:

- quote -

Here's one such sobering story.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/y93cbg
It's about ISOs (Incentive Stock Options) where there is
an advantage to exercising and holding as opposed to NQs
where there is no such advantage (which is what the OP was
asking about). The AMT from exercising ISOs is what
affected most people in Silicon Valley. With NQ is there
is no advantage to exercising and holding; one might
as well just wait to exercise and sell if one really thinks
that the stock will keep appreciating.

Anoop

kastnna wrote:
- quote -

That rule (and the ignorance of such) has indeed caused major financial
problems for many silicon valley newly minted paper-rich folks in 2000,
when their stock options turned to negative and they ended up owing to
the IRS on worthless paper.

Thanks Rich,

I finally found Pub 525 about 30 seconds after I posted this. Everyone
ignore my OP, its completely wrong.

My new understanding is that non-qualified stock options are treated as
ordinary income at the time the option is exercised on the difference
in market price and grant price (EVEN if the stock is not sold).
Basis is then adjusted to current market price for determining gains
(either long or short) on the future sale of the stock.

"kastnna" <kastnna[at]auburnalum.org> writes:

- quote -

Not just ordinary income but (if he's an employee), W-2 wage income,
and I believe it'll be subject to SS (to the cap) and Medicare tax.
- quote -

No, it won't. For an NQO, it is exercise that triggers
income, not the subsequent sale.

Since this is a NQO, it goes like this:
* Bargain element is taxed as wages *upon exercise*.
* Stock basis is exercise price plus recognized wage income.

So for BOTH scenarios, he'll be in the following situation:
* $225,000 of wage income
* Will receive stock with a basis of $425,000.

In scenario one, he'll have $225,000 of wage income and
a minimal short-term capital gain or loss to the extent
that what the stock sells for is different than $425,000
(since it's a same-day sale, we'd expect the stock to
sell for about the same price that is used by his employer
to calculate the recognized wage income).

In scenario two, he'll have $225,000 of wage income and
then a long-term capital gain to the extent that what
the stock sells for is different than $425,000. Exercise
and hold WILL NOT convert the wage income to capital gain.

--
Rich Carreiro rlcarr[at]animato.arlington.ma.us

I need a quick stock option refresher course please!

I've got a client with about 11,000 stock options in Southern Co (SO).
The grant prices vary, but it will cost him $200,000 to exercise the
options (which he doesn't have in cash). Once purchased, the shares can
be redeemed for about $425K. That's a $225K gain before taxes. This is
a Non-Qual grant, not an ISO.

This is my understanding. Please correct if necessary.
If he does a cashless "exercise and sell" transaction, he will buy and
immediately sell all 11,000 shares and the $225K profit will be taxed
as ordinary income. But he will have the remaining cash in his pocket.

If he does a cashless "exercise and sell to cover" he will buy all
11,000 shares and only sell enough to pay the $200K it cost him to buy.
The $225k gain will be left in stock certs for 13 months and then
liquidated. This will cause the $225K gain to be taxed at Capital Gains
rates. The downside is that he is subject to the stock volatility for
13 months AND he doesn't have the cash in hand.

We are leaning towards option 2, but I want to make sure I have the
taxes correct.

Thanks