zxcvbob wrote:

- quote -

The big SUVs are capable of towing large boats or camping trailers
which a minivan would find difficult. The crossover SUVs like the Ford
Escape are based on a car body and can get better gas milage than a
minivan especially if they have a hybrid drive train. But the crossover
SUV's have limited towing capability.

--
Ron

Elle wrote:
- quote -


I have a 2001 Chevy pickup, 2WD with a small V8. It only has 34000
miles on it in 5.5 years (and 2500 of that was a long trip I took a few
years ago), so you see how much I drive it. I expected it to average
over 20 mpg but it only gets about 15 (a lot less than that in the
winter.) The poor fuel economy is a major irritation, but paying $100
to fill up the tank is really not a big expense if you only have to fill
it a few times per year. It's more than offset by the utility of having
a truck available when I need to haul something.

I haven't figured out what the utility of most SUV's is versus a minivan
or big sedan, either of which would get almost double the MPG.

Bob

"Tad Borek" <borekfm[at]pacbell.net> wrote
- quote -

Interesting analysis. I think people would tend to focus
more on the $1400 "absolute" savings rather than the "$600"
relative savings.

Having an extra $1400 a year (or around $100 a month,
ballpark) means one could buy around $5k more car/truck,
assuming an 8%, five-year loan.

I could see a savvy salesperson making this point
successfully to a consumer: Buy this 30 mpg SUV at $25k, and
you get all these features, or, ma'am, buy this 15 mpg SUV
at $20k. I'd cringe at the 15 mpg, for one thing. Double the
fuel costs every couple of weeks or so? Plus more time
pulling into gas stations... I think even non-frugal people
roll their eyes at how much it's costing them to fill up
their cars these days, and many are taking pause.

Kinda close but I think a lot of folks would go for the 30
mpg vehicle, especially since it keeps paying back around
$100 a month after the car is paid off.

I googled and did see some reports on gas guzzlers' prices
being cut as a result of slower demand. I would bet it's
reality. Plus Toyota's marketshare is now a record or near a
record, and I think gas price increases over the last couple
of years have a lot to do with this. The new fuel efficient
Toyota Yaris evidently is very hard to buy near invoice at
the moment, because it's in such high demand. (IIRC people
at the Honda newsgroups are saying similar about the new
Honda Fit.) So people appear to be paying a few thousand
dollars more for it vs. the Corolla (or Civic), and
presumably for the fuel savings.

woessner[at]gmail.com wrote:
- quote -


I think you're right!

Higher gas prices don't really add much to the cost an SUV. Let's say it
gets 15 mpg vs. 30 and you drive the average 12,000 miles per year. The
15 mpg SUV uses 800 gallons a year, vs. 400. The 400 extra gallons cost
maybe $800 awhile back, and buyers then were willing to pay for that. At
$3.50/gal it would be $1,400, or $600 more per year.

That's peanuts relative to purchase price differences. A quick google
turned up an "edmunds price index" and in 2004 (couldn't find more
recent #s) the average large SUV, after discounts, cost about $14,000
more than the average car.

So what's an extra $600/year when an SUV buyer is willing to plunk down
an extra $14,000 to buy? (and take on other costs as well - insurance,
and tires, 4WD drivetrains, etc that wear out differently when driven on
the 405 at 80 mph).

Forget gas though, I just don't understand the fuss about driving,
basically, a garbage barge down the river. Blech! I'll take an
overpowered hatchback any day. Or for off-road, a Subaru.

-Tad

Although they're not buying SUVs, $3 gas may have an affect on fleet
buyers. (I don't mean rentals where the owner doesn't bear the fuel cost.)
When corporate buyers start requiring cars with better gas mileage, it may
create enough critical mass for manufacturers to make more available.

Just a thought...
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

<woessner[at]gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154816379.055880.275210[at]n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

I think it would be hard to find historical prices, but CarMax has no
haggle prices posted on the web for the few new brands they sell. I think
you say those are representative of market prices. I bought a Durango last
year at their Orlando site.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL



"HW "Skip" Weldon" <skip5700removethis[at]hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hb69d2hlhg88utn2euf233i5g3m28026rb[at]4ax.com...
- quote -

woessner[at]gmail.com wrote:
- quote -

I've seen many news and articles that large SUV demand has plummeted
and hybrid demand has surged in the past year. Where and when did you
hear that the opposite was true?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4676689
http://www.google.com/search?&q=dema...ids+gas+prices

Elle wrote:
- quote -

Don't forget to subtract out the final selling price when you get rid
of the vehicle. Depreciation can be a very large portion of the cost of
owning the vehicle.

FWIW, I drove an SUV for 9 years, up until February of this year. This
was one with a large V8 engine that got very mediocre gas mileage.
Nevertheless, over that entire 9 year span that I drove it,
depreciation cost me much more than the gas did. In the early years,
when gas was ~$1/gal, even the insurance cost more than the gas.

John Cowart

HW "Skip" Weldon wrote:
- quote -

This sort of makes sense, if you look at it from the perspective of
supply and demand. Gas prices go up, demand for gas-guzzling SUVs goes
down, so the price of of said SUVs also goes down.

That being said, I've read several articles to the effect that this is
simply not the case. Despite high gas prices, the demand for
gas-guzzling SUVs has not gone down, just like the demand for
high-efficiency hybrids hasn't gone up. I think it's going to take a
lot more than $3 gas to make American's change their car-buying habits.

- quote -

Edmunds. Edmunds also has a "True Cost to Own" feature, which may also
be useful to you.

I'm fairly interested in this, so let me know what you find out. And
if I can help.

--Bill

"HW "Skip" Weldon" <skip5700removethis[at]hotmail.com> wrote
- quote -

What's the goal of the hypothetical vehicle purchaser? To
save money? Or to weakly rationalize buying a fun but
ultimately way more expensive vehicle?

Total cost of owning a car = initial purchase price + gas
costs + insurance + maintenance and repairs.

Assume insurance and maintenance and repair are the same for
all cars, then compare initial purchase price and gas costs.
Sources like www.edmunds.com and the annual car buying issue
of Consumer Reports (published in April) will, as you may be
aware, give invoice prices for all new models. Edmunds
starts new SUV invoice prices at about $15k. E.g. a Kia
Sportage. It gets 22/27 mpg, city/highway. Plenty of compact
sedans start at much lower prices and get much better
mileage. Also, buying used is often even a better bargain.

Gas guzzler prices are getting slashed across the board, SUV
or not. The hypothetical vehicle purchaser here should
settle on what s/he wants (fun or low costs), pick a model,
and then shop around using various auto negotiating tactics
well discussed on the net, to get the savings as possible.
E.g. emailing dealers for their best price on X car with YZ
options is now a popular device for getting a very good
deal.

- quote -

If the above commentary does not change the direction of
this hypothetical consumer, then the question right above
should be clarified: actual prices paid or invoice prices?

For actual price paid, one would have to focus on a
particular region, note that the outcome may vary by region,
get enough data to have statistical significance, etc. Note
that the data may reflect a wide variation in the final,
negotiated price, etc. Dealerships have different goals.

Invoice price changes for some models might be found using
c. January issues of Consumer Reports and Edmunds.com , but
I would not put much faith in this approach, either.

I read elsewhere a suggestion that the prices of SUVs were slashed to
the extent that the savings would buy gas for several years.

I'm not sure about that, but am looking into it. Does anybody know
how I could find the cost of various vehicles as of 1/1/06?


-HW "Skip" Weldon
Columbia, SC