"albert" <albert.h[at]nospam.net> wrote in message
news:5Na4g.2743$Ci.2[at]trnddc05...
- quote -

[yes, my first checks read "First National City Bank", and yes, I use
Citibank for its convenience, the bulk of my savings funds are in better
yielding banks]

The terms of their agreement with me seemed a bit one sided in terms of
"mutual" security protections

specif. --
" . I authorize you to accept instructions from me to open/close accounts,
apply for credit and request services, without my further original
signature. You may accept my oral or electronic instructions with the same
effect as if I had signed them. "

Even though I am probably going to open that eSavings account, I still find
myself suspicious of that clause. It looks to my layman's eyes as something
that protects Citibank's interests more than mine, and "federally" speaking,
I think we are living in an "industry lobbyists write the laws" driven age
[e.g., Medicare Part D].

Therefore, I shall watch them carefully [trust but verify].......

thanks for the comments and thoughts.

albert

albert wrote:
- quote -

the banking industry is heavily regulated. I would imagine that this
agreement must meet federal and or state regulations and is probably
fairly standard throughout the industry. For example, compare the CD
deposit disclosure at several banks - pretty much the same stuff
everywhere.

I understand and somewhat share your hesitation, but I guess if you
want to do online banking you have to give the bank the authority to
accept online instructions. This is not to say that the agreement
couldn't have some unreasonable clauses that the banking lobby was
able to get inserted into such documents to protect themselves, but I
guess the bottom line is that due to regulation of banking it probably
doesn't contain anything really bad and it would be similar at other
banks.

Tad Borek wrote:
- quote -

The disclosure statement (which the OP said was 83 pages) is the same
type of disclosure you get with a brick-and-mortar account (except that
it has more clauses to deal with the electronic banking). If the OP
read the probably 50+ pages in the disclosure and amendments that apply
to the current Citibank account, then there should be no problem reading
the extra portion covering electronic transactions.

With respect to enabling oral or electronic communication, that may mean
simply that where a signature would otherwise be required, an online (or
phone) request may used instead; and not necessarily that Citibank has
any less duty to make a reasonable attempt to verify the identity of the
requester.

Just because a particular transaction has to be in writing now doesn't
mean that the bank is going to use a signature expert to verify your
identity; I don't see anything in the clause in question that suggests
any more or less duty to verify identity because of the form of the
communication - but I'm not a lawyer, I could be missing something, this
is not legal advice.

- quote -

Since the OP is already a Citibank customer (going back to when Citibank
was just a nickname, and it was officially First National City Bank), I
doubt that allowing electronic transactions is going to expose him to
any more marketing by Citibank than he already experiences.

- quote -

Unlike the limited services you get with some of the internet bank
accounts like ING, you can access your account at a real
brick-and-mortar bank (make deposits, etc.). You can use an ATM to
transfer between the savings account and your checking account without
it counting against your limit of six withdrawals per month - this gives
a greater amount of flexibility with your cash management.

Except that one opens the account online, Citibank seems to treat this
as a first class bank account, the same as any other MMA account.
--
Mark Freeland
nNeEwTs[at]sonic.net

albert wrote:
- quote -

Albert - without parsing that whole agreement, my two cents...

I wouldn't get hung up on the current version of an agreement because in
one month or six months or one year you're going to get a piece of mail
(email I guess?) that says "Important Changes to Your Account" and who
knows what will change? If something is bad there now, it might change,
or (more likely) something you don't like might get added in.

Specific to Citi...I've been a customer for years and I find them one of
the more intrusive ones out there. It took me almost three years to get
Citi to stop trying to cross-sell me other Citistuff, I used to get
phone calls every month it seems. Of all the places I've had accounts
they've been the most intrusive and annoying. If that's a concern to you
I'd say, find another bank, because if their agreement says they can
share your info with affiliates, you can be confident that they will!

Also - 4.5% isn't as hard to find as it once was, with these rate
increases. Try www.bankrate.com or keep an eye on the brokerage
money-market rates, they're around that range in some places. Though it
is nice consolidating at one company...

-Tad

Apologies for the length of this post. I did want to make my issues as
clear as possible, and think the included background and quotes will help..
I think what I discuss here raises issues somewhat broader than my specific
questions, and would enjoy hearing your thoughts.

I have generally avoided Internet banking -- I do have some internet
accounts, but they were opened with a paper and mail process, and I use them
as savings accounts, not to pay bills. The only "Internet" access I have
authorized to them is for transfer in and out [from other accounts of mine].
I monitor them regularly.

I have a longtime [30+ years] relation with Citibank in NYC -- for credit
card, for checking, for some limited "cash in case I need it fast" savings,
ATMs and direct deposit. I have not, previously, done anything online with
them.

They are now offering a "eSavings" account with a very competitive rate --
4.5%. I'd like that.

It turns out that one can only open their eSavings account online, and then,
only if one has one's other accounts with them online, too. So I decided
to bite the bullet, and made my Citibank accounts accessible online. I
began the application process for the online eSavings account...............

then I saw this, read it, and stopped at this point ------

" By checking the box next to my name and clicking on the 'Finish' button
below, I agree that:
. I have the software and equipment to review and retain the information
that has been presented to me electronically.
. I agree to receive information about my account(s), including the
Disclosures and Account Agreement, and any amendments to them,
electronically.
. I have reviewed an electronic version of the Disclosures and Account
Agreement and agree to be bound by these terms and conditions.
. I authorize you to accept instructions from me to open/close accounts,
apply for credit and request services, without my further original
signature. You may accept my oral or electronic instructions with the same
effect as if I had signed them. I agree to follow your security procedures
and to provide my signature upon request. You may at any time refuse to
accept such instructions.
. I authorize you to record and monitor my telephone calls as evidence of my
instructions and for service quality purposes.
. I authorize you to obtain a consumer report in connection with the
application, opening, update or renewal of any loan or deposit account I
apply for or open and I understand that you may obtain such reports.
. I also authorize you to use these consumer reports to consider me for
other programs with Citibank. Upon request, you will inform me if a consumer
report has been obtained and will give me the name and address of the agency
furnishing the report. "


I don't mind them recording calls, I think that likely makes it more secure
for them and for me.

I don't mind them getting "consumer reports" on me, I have a good credit
record, a good history, and I know how to say "no" to phone sales calls, how
to shred unwanted offers, and how to tell them not to send me any more of
them.


But --- here are the parts that trouble me:

". I agree to receive information about my account(s), including the
Disclosures and Account Agreement, and any amendments to them,
electronically.
. I have reviewed an electronic version of the Disclosures and Account
Agreement and agree to be bound by these terms and conditions. "

---- the above is 83 letter-sized pages long [based on the browser's "print
preview"] -- and one is shown it and asked to assert it has been read,
understood and accepted, before going on with the rest of the application
process.

And then there is this clause -- and this one really scares me:

" . I authorize you to accept instructions from me to open/close accounts,
apply for credit and request services, without my further original
signature. You may accept my oral or electronic instructions with the same
effect as if I had signed them. I agree to follow your security procedures
and to provide my signature upon request. You may at any time refuse to
accept such instructions."

---- I am not an attorney but as I read that, I could imagine that granting
them such license could open up a stunning, almost incomprehensible can of
potential worms. Or am I needlessly paranoid? Does the above mean that
some anonymous drone at Citibank [e.g., in S. Dakota, India, Canada, etc.],
not knowing me or my voice, or some Citibank software, can decide that a
thief is me, and, without any risk to Citibank, help the thief to clean out
my accounts, or open new credit accounts and drain those, or...? And,
given what I must authorize as the governing relationship with Citibank ---
I have no recourse at all, save for hiring an attorney, fighting on alone,
likely spending years and most or all of what I might hope to recover on an
attorney's services, etc., ad nauseum?

Your opinions, thoughts, questions, etc. will be appreciated.

TIA
albert


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