Why, thank you!
Gene E. Utterback, EA RFC (just got the RFC issued last Thursday!!!!!)

"Brent D. Gardner, ChFC" <bgardner20[at]cox.net> wrote in message
news:VkYPd.3001$yr.1549[at]okepread05...
- quote -

"Cal Lester" <cal-lester[at]comcast.net> wrote in message
news:q9idnQ-XlO-8s5HfRVn-3g[at]comcast.com...
- quote -

I'm not sure I understand the question, perhaps its the way you phrased it.
A deferred annuity, earning a guaranteed plus current (in any) interest
would provide the same or equivalent protection of one's IRA funds providing
that annuity had the same riders.

My response to the original post was intended to point out that there are
viable reasons to use a VA INSIDE a qualified retirement account like an
IRA, 401(k) or 403(b). I don't see how your question impacts my response,
but maybe I'm missing something. Can you clarify?

Gene E. Utterback, EA, RFC

"Gene E. Utterback, EA" <eagent[at]alliancetax.com> wrote in message
news:3723ksF57hkojU1[at]individual.net...
- quote -

Gene,

Excellent post!

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant
http://www.brentdgardner.com/
http://www.gardnerfinancialgroup.com/
http://www.topgunproducers.com/
http://www.creditfixinc.com/

Si vis pacem para bellum!

"Be ever questioning. Ignorance is not bliss. It is oblivion. You don't go
to heaven if you die dumb. Become better informed. Learn from other's
mistakes. You could not live long enough to make them all yourself." - Hyman
George Rickover (1900-86), Admiral, US Navy, advocated development of
nuclear subs & ships

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry. The ISP source of this post is not
monitored. If you want to email me, click on a link.

"John A. Weeks III" <john[at]johnweeks.com> wrote in message
news:john-D81327.02040209022005[at]news.mpls.visi.com...
- quote -

Everything in the above paragraph is false.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant
http://www.brentdgardner.com/
http://www.gardnerfinancialgroup.com/
http://www.topgunproducers.com/
http://www.creditfixinc.com/

Si vis pacem para bellum!

"Be ever questioning. Ignorance is not bliss. It is oblivion. You don't go
to heaven if you die dumb. Become better informed. Learn from other's
mistakes. You could not live long enough to make them all yourself." - Hyman
George Rickover (1900-86), Admiral, US Navy, advocated development of
nuclear subs & ships

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry. The ISP source of this post is not
monitored. If you want to email me, click on a link.

JLP wrote:
- quote -

I do not wish to flog a dead horse, but if you are willing to admit that
not all mutual fund sales people always do what is best for the
client, then you should be able to realize that the Life Insurance
Industry contains many people, from all walks of life. I will re-iterate
"One should attempt to deal with a professional". Enough said.
Cal Lester CLU

"Some people who sell Annuities do NOT have a license to sell
Mutual Funds."

So?... Then I guess they should get licensed to sell mutual funds and
vice versa. If a person goes to see a salesperson who can only sell
one product, which product do you think that salesperson is going to
recommend?

"One would hope that you are dealing with a professional person, who
would provide the BEST product for the specific need...."

The problem with that statement is what defines the BEST product? A
good salesperson can make any product look good.

"If I am not sorely mistaken, I do believe that at some time or other,
I have heard of Mutual Fund "salespeople" PUSHING specific brands of
mutual funds on unsuspecting persons, that did NOT match thier
needs........."

You are correct. In fact, I witnessed a guy who put his client in
different mutual fund families so that the client wouldn't meet the
breakpoint! It is true. The guy even bragged about doing it. Sure,
not every salesperson is like that. The problem is the way these
people get paid. The pay structure ENCOURAGES them to find ways to
make the most money regardless of what is best for the client.

JLP

http://AllThingsFinancial.blogspot.com

Many VA's have a provision that ensures that the beneficiary of an IRA
will receive at least the amount of money paid in to the annuity (minus
withdrawals) if the annuity owner dies before annuitizing. Because of
the big 2000-2002 bear market, this benefit became valuable in many
existing annuities.

I know how to price options. I once calculated that the variable
annuity offered by Vanguard was a good deal because of the embedded
"put option". I don't know if that is still the case.

"Cal Lester" <cal-lester[at]comcast.net> writes:

- quote -

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html

--
Rich Carreiro rlcarr[at]animato.arlington.ma.us

BreadWithSpam[at]fractious.net wrote:

- quote -

With the 15% tax rates for dividends and long term capital gains, one
may be better off tax-wise buying stocks or stock mutual funds directly
rather than through a VA, especially because one can harvest capital
losses. Using a VA in an IRA does not result in higher taxes and still
provides some insurance. So a rational investor could own stocks
directly in a taxable account and choose to put some of his IRA money
in the stock sub-accounts of a variable annuity to get insurance.

JLP wrote:
- quote -

Whoa.... put down that flame thrower.
What you profess may or may not be true. Different agent levels receive
different amounts of commission. In all probability the same would hold
true for Mutual Funds.
Some people who sell Annuities do NOT have a license to sell Mutual Funds.
" " " " Mutual Funds " " " " " " "
Annuities,
therefore there may or may NOT be a conflict. One would hope that you are
dealing with a professional person, who would provide the BEST product
for the specific need....


- quote -

If I am not sorely mistaken, I do believe that at some time or other, I have
heard of Mutual Fund "salespeople" PUSHING specific brands of mutual
funds on unsuspecting persons, that did NOT match thier needs..........
Cal Lester CLU



- quote -

- quote -

principal?

Yes, the reps get paid. They get paid MORE for selling the annuity
than they do if they were to go with front-load mutual funds. Tell me
that isn't a HUGE conflict of interest?

Also, I find it funny that the ONLY people recommending VAs inside a
retirement plan are INSURANCE SALESMEN or brokers who get paid more for
doing so.

JLP

http://AllThingsFinancial.blogspot.com

Gene E. Utterback, EA wrote:
- quote -


Excuse me, but would a Deferred Annuity, earning a Guaranteed
plus Current (if any) Interest NOT provide the SAME or equivelant
protection of one's IRA funds????
Cal Lester CLU

<BreadWithSpam[at]fractious.net> wrote in message
news:yob6510ypzu.fsf[at]panix2.panix.com...
- quote -

SNIPPED A LOT

- quote -

Because one wishes to protect their IRA or 401(k) principal.

- quote -

Not necessarily - again, if an investor wants to protect their retirement
funds, using a VA inside a qualified account will accomplish that. Think of
it like wearing a seatbelt in a car that has air bags. Why would anyone
wear a seatbelt in a car with air bags (the legal requirement aside of
course) - because it offers an additional layer of protection that you can't
get with air bags alone!

- quote -

Assuming a VA is appropriate, funding one with after tax dollars can be a
good option. With nonqualified accounts there is no limit (other than that
imposed by the VA company) to how much you put in a VA and tax deferred
growth.

- quote -

Gene E. Utterback, EA

"Gene E. Utterback, EA" <eagent[at]alliancetax.com> writes:
- quote -


- quote -

[snip - several perfectly sensible reasons why someone might
want a VA, and why paying for it isn't nonsensical]

- quote -

So there are plenty of reasons to have a VA. Why would
one ever buy one INSIDE an IRA or 401k, then, rather than
outside of it?

As far as I can tell from your post, the only reason would
be because that's where the money happens to be.

If one's got non-IRA assets -- assets on which taxes have
already been paid - it seems that *that* is the appropriate
source of funding with which to buy one's VA, assuming
that a VA is appropriate.


--
Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks. The rest gets trashed.
No HTML in E-Mail! -- http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow?
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

"JLP" <AllThingsFinancial[at]hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1107995761.657747.186220[at]c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
- quote -

This is nothing more than the propagation of a horrible myth that has kept
many investors who would benefit from using a VA in a qualified account from
using one. Under your theory, one shouldn't have insurance on their house
because there is a cost associated with it, or one shouldn't buy a Cadillac
because it costs more than a Hyundai! Balderdash!

VAs provide very real benefits for the right investor with the right needs.

Some will argue that if you need life insurance you should buy life
insurance and not pay the fees to put a death benefit on your retirement
investments. But what about the investor who never got around to buying an
adequate amount of privately offered life insurance because they had 2 or 3
times their salary as life insurance with their employer. Now that person
is 55 years old, a little overweight, maybe they've got the beginning of
Type II Diabetes or maybe they've had their first Heart Episode - AND now
they've gotten laid off. Let's assume they've been diligent about
accumulating 6 months of expenses in cash and have some equity in their
homes. They probably also have at least one kid in college and mortgage.
Maybe the next job won't pay quite as much, but they can get by - because
they can see that in 7 to 10 years they will be able to retire and by
combining Social Security and their retirement program they can live a
decent life.

How much risk tolerance does that investor really have? We all know that
over time the stock market will provide a decent return. We all also know
that at any given time the market can be at an all time low. Can this
investor afford for the market to be a low point when its time to retire?
Can he sleep at night during retirement if the market falls 10%? What if he
dies at a low point in the market, what happens to his wife and kids?

Many of today's annuities offer guarantees for not only a death benefit but
also for income purposes at retirement. Many annuities allow you lock in
the high water mark for the purpose of annuitization later. Both, sometimes
either, of these guarantees will give an investor the courage to stay
invested in the market where his portfolio may perform better than if he
gets in and out because of a fearful reaction to the market.

And yes, there are costs associated with these guarantees. So what? It
costs money to put insurance on your car, but I'd be most people have more
than the minimum amount required by law to get tags on the cars. Why do you
suppose that is?

And yes, Reps get paid - just like the guy who changes your oil, or the
produce person at the grocery store, or the clerk at Best Buy - though not
quite as much as the starting QB for the Eagles, or the center for the
Lakers. Again, so what?

Lastly, annuities are NOT right for everybody and not every annuity is right
under all circumstances. But putting an investment in an annuity INSIDE a
qualified plan can be the best thing some investors could ever do. Like
virtually everything in life, it depends on the facts and circumstances of
the particulars of the situation at hand.

Gene E. Utterback, EA

A variable annuity inside an IRA or 401(k) does not make sense to me.
Sure, there are death benefits. But, they come at a STEEP price. If
you want a death benefit, buy an insurance policy. Usually, the
advisor who recommends a VA inside a tax-sheltered account is only
looking out for HIS best interest.

JLP

http://AllThingsFinancial.blogspot.com

Rui Teixeira wrote:
- quote -

I guess by you considering a variable annuity you believe the market
will generally give you a better rate of return than fixed investments
over the next 20 years when you cannot touch the IRA money w/o penalty.
Each portfolio has fees and expenses. Rollover IRAs offered by
companies like Fidelity, Vanguard, and T Rowe Price offer no load funds
which means there are no commission fees but you generally have to do
your own research to which funds you want to have in your portfolio.
These companies also provide funds that have funds that rebalance
themselves annually based on the year you want to retire. If you have
no clue to which funds to pick, you can ask your financial advisor to
open a rollover IRA for you and he/she hopefully would help you with
asset allocation to manage your risks and objectives. The funds offered
by the broker add sales charges to compensate the broker for selling
those funds to you. If you choose this direction make sure you know the
fees and expenses of the funds chosen and that you are choosing class A
shares. A Variable annuity will add M&E charges instead, but provide
you with death and living benefits. Depending on the product, the death
benefit options usually include a payout option greater of the contract
value or the money you put into the IRA. Living benefits usually
include a guarantee rate of return and/or lock-ins. Now it is up to you
to decide for yourself the payout options. If you want to withdraw
money on your own terms open a rollover IRA. You have to talk with your
"financial advsior" about the features of the variable annuity and
decide if the death and living benefit options of the product are worth
the extra charges. These days everyone talks about cost but really you
should be looking at the features. Depending on the person, some people
would pay a little bit more for better features.

I think that the operative word here "BUY" is missing......
One can not "move" to a Variable Annuity, one must BUY
a Variable Annuity. That is NOT to say that a VA is or
is not good, simply that a L A R G E commision would
be involved in the transaction. "Let the buyer beware".
Cal Lester CLU



Rui Teixeira wrote:
- quote -

In article <WQcOd.19888$qB6.5182[at]tornado.tampabay.rr.com> ,
"Rui Teixeira" <rui_teixeira[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

No, you never do that. You only roll IRA's and 401K's into
"rollover IRA" accounts. Someone is trying scam you. They do
that because there are big fees and big commissions. You get
nothing out of the deal since your IRA or 401K is already
a qualified account for purposes of taxes.

-john-

--
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John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 john[at]johnweeks.com
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