- quote -

Aurora National Life Assurance Company, who bought the bankrupt
Executive Life a little over 10 years ago.

- quote -

It expires when my last child is in college. At that point, my wife
and I will no longer need income replacement to help the kids. We
will then get new insurance to support just each other. That will me
much less, as my wife will likely retire at about the same time with a
nice pension.

- quote -

They can raise the premium another $200 before they have to stop,
according to the policy. My calculations show if they raise the
premium this much, the cash value won't catch up for a number of
years.

- quote -

Correct. There are no dividends.

Thanks for the advice, Cal.

Brent:

You replied to my reply to Cal. Yet, my reply was not posted on the
news group. So I replied above again. Here is my reply to your
reply:

- quote -

I had no health condition. Frankly, I don't recall the exact
circumstances other than I was in college and my father bought it for
me through a friend who was an insurance agent. "Irreplaceable 88"
sounds familiar. But I don't have the policy in front of me and don't
feel it's important enough to figure out.

- quote -

as the cash I will receive. So investment-wise, I don't lose
anything. Of course, had I put the premium amount in a mutual fund
each year for the past 20 years, I would have a lot more money. Oh
well. I can use the cash. I would have trouble paying a higher
premium. I don't need the policy. I worry about the company.

--Niel

The concept is called pension maximization.

It's taking the top pension benefit and using the difference between the top
rate and the survivor rates and buying permanent life insurance. In fact
many people can do well when they are downsizing their home and can afford
the single premium.

"Niel" <nielloeb[at]hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8577d4d9.0406120353.2aa680a[at]posting.google.com...
- quote -

You kept it this long? You may be one of the last remaining policy holders
that isn't almost dead. I replaced many millions of Aurora, as my mentor did
before me.

- quote -

ALL of the Interest Sensitive Whole Life policies assumed by Aurora had a
premium increase circa 1997-1998. There was an adjustment option, which may
explain your next statement.

- quote -

I've never seen any non-par, no excess interest policies issued by EL,
except those that were specially issued for impaired risk (i.e.,
Irreplaceable 88). Did you have a health condition when you purchased it? If
EL had sold mostly non-par whole life, they'd still be in business, most
likely. What got them in trouble was promising more than they could deliver
(i.e., 12.50% illustrated excess interest, 5.50% guaranteed minimum). I have
hundreds of their "as sold" illustrations. Nothing could touch them at the
time, and even today, a VUL can't beat their illustrated values, which
should have raised some eyebrows.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant
http://members.cox.net/brentdgardner1378/

"Be ever questioning. Ignorance is not bliss. It is oblivion. You don't go
to heaven if you die dumb. Become better informed. Learn from other's
mistakes. You could not live long enough to make them all yourself." - Hyman
George Rickover (1900-86), Admiral, US Navy, advocated development of
nuclear subs & ships

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.

- quote -

Aurora National Life Assurance Company, who bought the bankrupt
Executive Life a little over 10 years ago.

- quote -

It will expire about the same time my kids finish college in about 25
years. At that point, I plan on getting new insurance to replace
income needed by only my wife (and myself for her policy), as we will
no longer need income to pay for our kids, who will no longer need to
be supported by us.

- quote -

The policy has a maximum premium of $800 a year, with no schedule for
steps. They can change the premium at any time, up or down, but never
more than $800.

- quote -

It is non-participating: no dividends or interest ever. I mentioned
the premiums paid being equal to the cash value because doesn't that
mean I have no tax consequences if I cash in?

- quote -

Thanks for giving me Internet advice, Cal. I appreciate it.

--Niel

cal-lester <cal-lester[at]comcast.net> wrote:

- quote -

I haven't given my age, but I am within 5 years of considering
retirement.

- quote -

OK, I can see that many retirement plans are subject to 'revision'.

I have an aunt whose husband didn't select any survivor benefit on his
retirement suffer from not having a reasonable retirement income. Now
maybe an insurance policy would have helped instead, but I am not sure
that he could or would have bought life insurance in the amount needed.

--
Ron

"Ron Peterson" <ron[at]shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:10cgm3ramnh8509[at]corp.supernews.com...
- quote -

It seems??? =)

It seems that you have not performed a proper analysis.

Anytime one accepts a reduced payout, the difference is a PREMIUM for a
benefit -- one they, or their beneficiaries, may NEVER receive.

On the other hand, a premium paid for permanent life insurance guarantees
that the beneficiary will ALWAYS receive what is promised (often more).

I've written a fair amount of coverage for Pension Maximization purposes,
and I can say with confidence that NO retirement plan, EVER, beats life
insurance for liquidity at death, AND that any premium (reduction in
benefits) to extend payments to survivors is MORE than the cost of the
insurance. Why? Pension plans do NOT underwrite their plan partipants, which
means they take ANYONE, and guarantee the SAME benefits to a person with
AIDS as they do to the person with perfect health. Anyone with half a brain
can intuit that the pension plan is loaded for adverse selection, while
individually underwritten coverage can be obtained on a best offer basis.

Bottom line: Cal knows his stuff, and you're going to lose if you think you
know more than he does about life insurance. You picked the wrong battle.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant
http://members.cox.net/brentdgardner1378/

"Be ever questioning. Ignorance is not bliss. It is oblivion. You don't go
to heaven if you die dumb. Become better informed. Learn from other's
mistakes. You could not live long enough to make them all yourself." - Hyman
George Rickover (1900-86), Admiral, US Navy, advocated development of
nuclear subs & ships

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.

"Ron Peterson" <ron[at]shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:10cesqac1rju485[at]corp.supernews.com...
- quote -

I sold MORE insurance to people over the age of 70 in the last 12 months
than I did to people under the age of 70, and most of it was NOT for federal
estate taxes, NOR was it for basic final expenses, such as funerals and
burials.

Those who think they won't need insurance at those ages are probably
right -- AND they are likely to be on the lower half of the socioeconomic
spectrum at that age. In other words, the poor, the almost poor, and the
destined-to-be-poor, if they live long enough.

People who have estates that grow over time tend to have ever increasing
needs for liquidity at death. That's the irrefutable fact of life that is
all but ignored by financial porn written by the likes of Dacey, Quinn,
Orman, Givens, and Ramsey. If they were in the upper half of the
socioeconomic spectrum, they'd not be spreading their mythology.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant
http://members.cox.net/brentdgardner1378/

"Be ever questioning. Ignorance is not bliss. It is oblivion. You don't go
to heaven if you die dumb. Become better informed. Learn from other's
mistakes. You could not live long enough to make them all yourself." - Hyman
George Rickover (1900-86), Admiral, US Navy, advocated development of
nuclear subs & ships

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.

- quote -

If I remember correctly, you are in your twenties. The possibility of
your remaining in the employ of your current employer is rather
small (generaly speaking).

During the course of my involvement in the industry, I have seen
MANY changes take place in the "corporate retirement system",
BOTH at the corporate level and at the governmental level, and
NOT always to the benefit of the employee. Whereas the
"immediate cash" provided by a life insurance contract has only
improved over the years.
Cal Lester CLU

cal-lester <cal-lester[at]comcast.net> wrote:

- quote -

My retirement program at work allows me to specify that my survivors can
get my retirement at reduced payout for optional amounts of time. It
seems that is superior to having life insurance.

--
Ron

"Ron Peterson" <ron[at]shell.core.com> wrote in message news:10cesqac1rju485[at]corp.supernews.com...
- quote -


Yes, I am still slightly active (semi-retarded), but that has nothing
to do with my need for Life Insurance. The operative word there is
N E E D. I have a family, and I have financial obligations. When I
DIE (not IF) there will be a need to pay off financial obligations that
I incurred while I was alive.
In addition, my family will require some cash flow even though I am dead.

The PURPOSE of ANY Life Insurance policy is to provide DOLLARS
when they are needed most...........
Cal Lester CLU

cal-lester <cal-lester[at]comcast.net> wrote:

- quote -

Can you explain why? Is it because you are still working?

--
Ron

"Niel" <nielloeb[at]hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8577d4d9.0406080856.480ea0ce[at]posting.google.com...
- quote -

I have a number of concerns here. (A) you do NOT tell us the
name of the company. They may have been purchased by a larger
compqny, and carry an even STRONGER rating ! ! ! !

(B) you mention that you have 750K of TERM on each of you.
You are currently 40 years of age. When will that term ins. EXPIRE???
Term insurance is for a specific number of years, 5 -10 -15 -20, then
NO MORE. I am currently age 75, and still NEED Life Insurance..............




- quote -

A Whole Life Policy contains a LEVEL Premium for the Life
of the policy. Apparently you have some form of "Step Rate",
which started out with a lower than normal rate, and increases
at SPECIFIC dates. I would suggest that you EXAMINE the
actual policy itself, to find out what you REALLY have.

I never looked at it as an investment anyway.
- quote -

You mention that the current C/V is equal to premiums paid
in to date. You make NO MENTION of any dividends or interest
having been earned. Does this ibfer that it is what we in the
industry call a "Non-Participating Policy", meaning that there
are NO DIVIDENDS ? ? ? ?


- quote -

Only you )with the aid of a Qualified Prefessional Insurance Advisor
can determine you REAL need ! ! ! ! !

Cal Lester CLU

In article <8577d4d9.0406080856.480ea0ce[at]posting.google.com> , Niel
<nielloeb[at]hotmail.com> wrote:

- quote -

Various consumer groups have determined that whole life is almost
never a good investment for the typical middle class investor. As
a result, I'd take the money and run. However, one factor to consider
is the fees, if any, required to take the money out. If the fees are
anything above trivial, please post back to this newsgroup.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 john[at]johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================

I have a whole life policy for $50,000 bought 20 years ago at age 20.
The company is not rated by A.M. Best, which makes me nervous.
I also have term life for my wife and me for $750,000 each to provide
for our kids through college. So I don't need the whole life policy
anymore.
The premium was $200 annually for the first ten years and $400 for the
past ten years. The cash value has increased $600 a year. So
cash-wise, I was "making" 50% a year.
Now, they are raising the premium to $600. So cash-wise, I will
"make" no more money. I never looked at it as an investment anyway.
At this point, I have paid exactly as much in premiums as the current
cash value. The premium is not expected to vanish.
I am buying a new, more expensive house, and frankly, I could use the
$9000 cash I would get if I sold out.
Since A.M. Best does not rate the company, I don't need the insurance,
the cash value won't rise more than the premiums anymore, and I could
use the money, is it a mistake to take the cash?