On 29 May 2004 18:10:12 GMT, pmb[at]his.com (Paul Michael Brown) wrote:

- quote -

I think I saw this article, which references an owner with a car that
had been driven less than 1000 miles. (Although I may be confusing
this with a similar article on the topic). If it's the same article,
there are some points to make:

1) When the hybrid engine is "new", it gets worse mpg than it does
after it's "broken in".

2) You have to learn "how" to drive a hybrid car to get the best fuel
efficiency. I don't drive my own car as well as a friend who's owned
an Insight for several years (and thus is more experienced than me). I
do drive it better than my husband (who only drives it once a month or
so). I bought my car last Sep't, and was _lucky_ to get 30 mpg in it.
This morning, its at 47.3 mpg.

3) MPG also varies by season (in cold weather, the engine doesn't shut
off for stops).

If you take a bunch of people who are used to leaning on the gas and
put them in a brand new hybrid, they're going to get the worse
possible mileage.

I think that the WSJ dropped the ball by not finding and interviewing
a group of Insight owners (who are already used to the foibles of
hybrid cars because their model has been around longer).

I was TERRIBLY disappointed when I bought my car and was driving
around at 30 mpg. I thought I'd effectively been tricked into buying
it. Because, I couldn't accept that I was _that_ poor of a driver. It
wasn't till my Insight-owning friend drove my car along the same
stretch of highway that I'd just driven and gotten twice the mpg that
I got, that I stopped whining and started improving.

- quote -

It depends on where you live. My NYS tax credit combined with my
federal tax deduction completely paid for the 'difference' in cost
between my hybrid civic and a similarly equipped model (I don't
compare it to the 'base' model as others do, because the hybrid isn't
a 'base' model even without the engine).

As far as maintenance costs, those are only high because the car is
effectively 'exotic'. I can still take it for oil changes/minor
tune-ups to my local (non-dealer) garage and pay the same low rate I
did with my old Honda. It's only the major services (and presumably
actual repairs although I haven't had any yet) that require I pay the
exceptionally high fees.

As more people buy and drive hybrids, more garages will have
experience with handling them and the major service costs will come
down.

- quote -

To try to put this post back on-topic for the group , I think people
would be more effective with their finances if they had an actual
feedback mechanism for when they were making "frugal" or "lavish"
spending choices, at that moment. My car has a readout that signals my
effective mpg both averaged from the present tank of gas, and at any
particular second that I'm driving.

If there were some sort of personal announcement that detailed the
complete financial impact of each financial choice, I think more
people would have wills, less would be charging lattes at 18%+
interest (with no plans to pay it off), and very few would be
"forgetting" to take advantage of retirement savings options.

Gwen


======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Cleverly done. Discussed cars yet included just enough financial planning to get by. <grin

- quote -

The Washington Post last week ran a story about how disappointed the
buyers of hybrid vehicles have been with the fuel economy. It seems that
the EPA estimates are wildly optimistic for a variety of reasons. (The
tests are literally done in a laboratory on a dynamometer, which
eliminates drag as a factor. Moreover, the EPA defines "highway" driving
as a constant 47 m.p.h., which doesn't replicate the way people really
drive on the highway.) The article concluded that yes, hybrid cars do get
better fuel economy. But the the gas savings are trivial compared to the
increased cost of ownership. The Post noted that some owners would have to
drive their hybrids for 12 years at today's gas prices to break even.
Granted, there are numerous factors suggesting that gas prices will remain
high. But does anybody seriously believe that they will remain as high as
they are for the next 12 years?

In the end, when total ownership costs are concerned it's probably *way*
cheaper to buy a used gasoline Civic or some other econobox instead of a
hybrid vehicle. The mileage is comparable and the purchase price is *way*
less.

[Suggest followups to alt. autos, or the frugal living newsgroup. This
isn't really a financial planning issue. It's more like the "how much car
do you really need?" debate that provoked a gentle scold from our esteemed
moderator recently. ;-)]

Gwen Morse <goldmoon[at]geocities.com> wrote:
- quote -

Yes, it will be a hybrid version of the Ford Escape. I am hoping for a
hybrid minivan.

--
Ron



======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
While interesting, this thread is wandering off topic for financial planning.

On Sun, 23 May 2004 05:49:51 CST, ttroberts[at]aol.com (TTRoberts) wrote:

- quote -

Is this really coming out this fall? I've been hearing about it on and
off for at least 2 years with no sign of it?!?

BTW, I drive a Civic Hybrid and get 40-55 mpg (depending on how much
highway time I can get in).

Gwen

"Jimmy Smith" <nospam[at]pleaseno.more> wrote in message
news:n3wsc.361$3X4.258[at]bignews5.bellsouth.net...
- quote -

You might need a reality check. Although there are some jobs that pay more
than the same job in the lower-48 (and certainly not 2 times more), for the
most part wages here are about the same as the rest of the country. We do
indeed get a Permanent Fund Dividend every year, but we also pay property
taxes. Last year my property taxes, paid locally not to the state, were
higher than one Dividend. We do not have an income tax nor a state sales
tax. Some states have both, some have only one, like Washington (sales) or
Oregon (income). Anchorage has the 2nd highest cost of living in the US,
right behind Honolulu. I don't know what the price of gasoline is in
Anchorage, but it isn't $4.45. The thing about Kotzebue is that it isn't
near anywhere. You can't drive to get there. I do live in Alaska, but
Kotzebue is over 2000 miles from where I live. It's a big state.

Elizabeth Richardson

"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Uxcrc.35938$hH.723966[at]bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
- quote -

Yeah, but everyone in Alaska gets paid twice as much as the rest of the
country and they also ge the "oil dividend" every year. We get propery
taxes.

Jimmy
- quote -

dave_and_darla[at]Juno.com (Dave Dodson), you wrote:

<< <i> I live in Kenya. The price of "petrol" (as they call it here) is about
60 Kenyan shillings per liter, which converts to about $3.04. This has
been the price for at least 3 years. Not withstanding the current
$4.45 above, <b> my observation is that most people around the world would
love to pay U.S. prices for gasoline.</b> </i> >
Good point and I agree.

People in the US have been complaining a LOT, particularly for the last 30
years (since the '74 oil crisis). When one makes allowances for inflation,
"petrol" in the U.S. has been really cheap.

But now maybe people will lay off those gas-guzzling cars and start encouraging
manufactures to provide more efficient autos . . . like Ford's new hybrid SUV
coming out this fall that gets something like 30 to 40 MPH. Though we in the
U.S. might be able to significantly reduce gasoline usage, the cost of other
petroleum based products will rise if oil prices remain high effecting an
increased inflationary trend. It may not be the kind of inflation we saw back
in '74 because of the oil embargos, but it very well could mean an extended
period of higher inflation than we've seen in the last 10+ years or so.

"Elizabeth Richardson" <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<Uxcrc.35938$hH.723966[at]bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> ...
- quote -

I live in Kenya. The price of "petrol" (as they call it here) is about
60 Kenyan shillings per liter, which converts to about $3.04. This has
been the price for at least 3 years. Not withstanding the current
$4.45 above, my observation is that most people around the world would
love to pay U.S. prices for gasoline.

Dave

In article <Uxcrc.35938$hH.723966[at]bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> ,
Elizabeth Richardson <erichktn[at]worldnet.att.net> wrote:

- quote -

Last fall, when the price of gasoline was in the $1.60 range, I
took a trip out west. Just outside of Death Valley, I saw a gas
station that was advertising gas at $2.58 a gallon. My first
reaction was that this was highway robbery. Then I happened to
see the sign that said "next services 92 miles". At that point,
I changed my mind and thought that $2.58 was probably a pretty
good price, so I filled up.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 john[at]johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================

The price of unleaded gasoline in Kotzebue, Alaska hit $4.45/gallon
yesterday. Just one of the many reasons you can be glad you don't live there
(another is that it's snowing today). Just thought this might help people
feel good about the price of gas where they live.

Elizabeth Richardson