TCullen95[at]aol.com (TCullen95) wrote in message news:<5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com> ...
- quote -

Was this in the Vietnam era?

Because we have, to some extent, returned to that place now. A young
man or woman joining the Army has a serious possibility of being
crippled or killed in Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever the next move is
(don't let the low death toll in Iraq fool you: the new body armour
saves lives, for sure, but the number of seriously wounded or maimed
is also higher than in previous conflicts ie there are over 13000
wounded on 500 or so dead).

The US Army is quite thinly stretched: virtually the entire Army right
now is either on the way to Iraq, in Iraq or transiting out. The
Secretary of Defence is not planning meaningful increases in total
manpower strength, so this situation is unlikely to change in the near
future.


- quote -

Taxes are higher (probably) than they were when you were in this
situation (except for the top 2% or so of income earners) eg social
security taxes are much higher (following the Reagan settlement).

Also the real cost of college (ie after inflation) doubles about every
25 years, in the case of public colleges it has gone up much much
faster (especially in states like California). More of government
budgets goes to interest on public debt and also to healthcare,
retirement benefits.

- quote -

You could lend them the money.

The point I am making is that things are, indeed, tougher than they
were when I went to college (1980). And the returns to college
education (or rather, the cost to your income of not having one, the
gap between men with high school and with college educations) have
grown quite dramatically in the last 30 years.

I paid my way through college. I worked full time from 9th grade on through
college and paid room, board and medical. I never understood why they so
unwilling to help with my education. I thought there was something wrong
with me until I was old enough to see that most parents want and expect
their children to do better than myself. Most parents want their kids to
have it easier than they, but too many don't let them work to achieve or
acquire at all. You're looking for the balance point.

Would I change it? Yes and no. I was exhausted by the time I was a college
sophomore. I worked in unsafe and demoralizing jobs and was exposed to
horrible people and circumstances. My grades were lower than if I'd have
had the time to study in high school and beyond. OTOH, I really understood
money, budgeting and working hard to achieve my own goals and live life to
my own expectation. I was completely self-reliant and since my parents
wouldn't sign for school loans I had no debt to re-pay.

I don't think joining the Army is a safe choice nowadays. I want my kids
alive; this isn't a stateside army any more and it may not be for quite some
time. I do expect young folks to learn about budgeting, finance and working
for what we want long before college. That attitude starts at about age 3
when they clean up toys and mimic their parents doing chores.

It seems you've set some boundaries already by telling them they are on
their own for grad. school. Now you must determine whether paying for
college is "shouldering a load" or helping them while they help themselves.
It could be that you figure out if this is the only way to measure your
support. Is financial support in any way a positive payoff for relieving
stress, or getting them into a paying job earlier with fewer financial and
spiritual relapses later? Only you and your family values can say.

But, I don't think demand is the right and helpful attitude. You are
expecting, you are setting up learning and household systems to support your
expectation that they will in some way contribute. But demand? No. They are
not required to go to college (I know that's virtually unthinkable nowadays)
and can just split after high school. Wouldn't you rather have adults who
learn to think in the higher brain centers than respond to your demands?


"TCullen95" <TCullen95[at]aol.com> wrote in message
news:5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com...

- quote -

<beliavsky[at]aol.com> wrote in message
news:3064b51d.0401161458.72e4dceb[at]posting.google.com...
- quote -

I can vouch for the reality that many highly skilled trades people earn more
than many college graduates. In my practice, I have clients who earn six
figure incomes doing some rather mundane things, such as farming, ranching,
brokering bull sperm (the harvesting is the hard part, they tell me, no pun
intended), cutting hair, hauling trash, hazardous waste disposal, digging
ditches (for real!), finishing concrete, laying brick, surveying land,
appraising land and buildings, making sandwiches, catering, wedding planner,
plumber, electrician, auto mechanics, salespeople (real estate, insurance,
cars, boats, heavy equipment, grain, livestock, auctioneers). Amazingly
enough, I have both doctors and lawyers who earn less than many of my
clients in the occupations listed above (none of which require a 4 year
college degree).

- quote -

So true, so true. That book The Bell Curve has a lot of interesting factoids
covering this area.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant
http://members.cox.net/brentdgardner1378/

"Be ever questioning. Ignorance is not bliss. It is oblivion. You don't go
to heaven if you die dumb. Become better informed. Learn from other's
mistakes. You could not live long enough to make them all yourself." - Hyman
George Rickover (1900-86), Admiral, US Navy, advocated development of
nuclear subs & ships

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.

TCullen95[at]aol.com (TCullen95) wrote in message news:<5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com> ...
- quote -

I think I will probably be willing to pay for my son's entire college
education, and perhaps even professional school, but I will ask myself
the following questions when the time comes:

(1) Is he college material? Many Americans have been deluded into
believing that everyone should go to college. I am not one of them.
Some people are not smart enough or motivated enough. There are
skilled trades (electricians, plumbers, nurses etc.) that do not
require a 4-year college degree.

Tad Borek cited the statistic that college graduates earn much more
than high school graduates over their lifetime, but there are probably
two effects here.
College education does raise earning ability to some extent, but on
average college graduates are more intelligent than non-college goers
and would earn more in any case. There was a study finding that Ivy
League graduates earn more on average than graduates of state
universities, but it found that the earnngs gap was explained entirely
by the differences in the student bodies UPON ADMISSION.

(2) Has he done his best academically before college? Many high
schools offer advanced placement (AP) courses, and if kids pass them,
they can get college credit. I finished college in 3 years this way,
saving my parents about $20 K.
I will be reluctant to pay for my son's freshman calculus course in
college if he decided not take it in high school because it was too
much work.

(3) Has he applied for the all the scholarships available?

(4) In general, does he deserve it? Has he been a good kid, or a brat?

(5) If he had the money himself, how would he spend it? If you are
willing to spend $100 K on a college education for your kid, you could
ask him if he would rather go to college or instead go to work now,
getting the $100 K over the years as an "allowance" or as a down
payment for a house.

(6) Will financial assistance enable him to finish college faster?
Many kids spend 5, 6, or more years in college. The long-term cost of
this is high.

I am a bit skeptical of college savings plans, although I have
contributed, because I won't know the answers to these questions
regarding my son for many years. I intend to save most of his
prospective college money in a regular taxable account. If I decide to
pay for his college, I can give him stocks, which he can sell and use
for college expenses (while paying low taxes on capital gains).

TCullen95[at]aol.com (TCullen95) wrote in message news:<5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com> ...
- quote -

I tell every high school senior in their graduation cards I give them
there are two rules to college:

1) You learn the most important things OUTSIDE the classroom
2) Never tell your parents rule #1 if they are paying for college.

I am still paying student loans to this day. I started college in 91
and graduated in 98 (my "third" senior year). My parents did the loan
paperwork the first two senior years, I did the third.

I graduated with a BS in Mechanical Engineering, had 3 years of co-op
experience and found a job before I graduated. I was working the same
job I am now in July '97. I am a better person for having student
loans, and learned the most when I had to get the last loan for that
7th year. The pressure was on me to take me where it was I wanted to
go. At the time, I wasn't even sure where I wanted to go, but had
figured out I needed a degree to get there.

My wife had her parents foot a significant amount of the bill and we
argue all the time over paying for kids school. We have no kids yet,
so we have some time.

My current suggestion to my wife is to save money for kids education,
and give the money to them after they graduate. The kid gets the bill
up until they graduate, then I'll pay the loans off.

The other issue is graduate school. I suggest to high schoolers that
where you do your undergrad is unimportant. If you overachieve and
stand out, you can get a Masters from anywhere.

For example:

Would you consider it better if someone got a BS in Business from
Havard, then an MBA from SUNY Buffalo?

or a BS in Business from Buffalo then an MBA from Havard?

I also point out the stength of large schools like Michigan, Ohio
State and Penn State is not the size of the undergraduate class, but
the amount of paid research the school has for it's master's students.

cya

Jim

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:00:36 CST, Brent D. Gardner, ChFC <bgardner20[at]cox.net> wrote:
- quote -

Actually.... no, parents have been forced by the courts to
pay for college educations. The case of Alexander Durand comes
to mind, from last year. Also, look at:

http://childsupportguidelines.com/ar...art200010.html

In article <5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com> ,
TCullen95[at]aol.com (TCullen95) wrote:
- quote -

You've got to think about how you are going to feel when (if) your children
cannot handle working and going to school full time, and as a result, they end
up dropping out of college and working at a job they don't like just to pay
the bills.
My parents helped me out a bit, but I still had to work in college. When I
found a decent paying job, I dropped out of college. I think my parents are
still disappointed, and while I wish I had a degree, I'm doing pretty well
because I am with a great company. But I probably would be happier if I had
finished my degree and found a career in a field I enjoy instead of just one
that pays the bills. (And now my mom is nagging me because I'm not happy with
my job).

Oh, and my husband's parents paid for his way though college (local state
school, he lived at home). Most of his school mates got loans. They are still
paying off loans while we bought a house, a new car, and go on vacations.
While he is very frugal and hardworking, he got a huge jump on being
financially secure because his parents helped him out.

So, while I agree in principle that you shouldn't give your children
everything, you've got to think about a lot of different things, with the most
important being what you children are like. Since you won't know that for a
few years, save what you can, and if they're not worthy of the money when they
turn 18, spend it on yourself!

Mieko

"Brent D. Gardner, ChFC" <bgardner20[at]cox.net> wrote
- quote -

The only way not to sweat it is to presume the kids will pay for college
themselves or just not go.

All my reading and experience indicates that financial aid is there but
generally pitiful, particularly if the parents have a pile of dough socked away.
Full scholarships go to only a tiny number.

The cost of college has far outpaced inflation in the last decade (or more?). A
family is looking at a cost of around $14,000 tuition, room, and board per year
for a (mere) state university. Send the kid to a private school and you're
easily over $20k a year. Send the kid to "the best" and you're well over $30k a
year.

Of course community college (followed by a transfer to a four-year college) is
an option that will likely save money.

I hope the original poster is aware of the many (all?) college savings programs
that many states offer, as well as what the federal government can do to assist
in saving.

If not, ask. I am certain many here can give a good outline. (Though an
Internet search will likely be about as fruitful but perhaps not as efficient,
time-wise.)

Otherwise, I certainly agree there is no law that says a parent must pay for a
child's college education.

"TCullen95" <TCullen95[at]aol.com> wrote in message
news:5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com...
- quote -


Lots of good responses to this, but want to share two family situations. My
sister had a scholarship which paid about 1/3 of her under-graduate
education. However, in order for her scholarship to be renewed from one
semester to the next, she was required to maintain a certain GPA. She worked
at a few jobs during school, including one that was a sort of governess for
a wealthy family, and also worked as a clerical temp during vacations and
summers. This paid an additional 1/3. My mother, a widow with 2 children
still at home, agreed to match whatever my sister earned. I think she had a
better appreciation for her education at a younger age than many I've met.

My granddaughter started college this fall. I have saved a few thousand for
her, but I don't think there is any other family money. Nicole started
working part time the summer between her sophomore and junior years in high
school and then had a part time job right through until the present. Her
parents required her to save 2/3 of her earnings toward her college. She
earned a scholarship, again, one that required her to maintain a certain
GPA. She learned at an early age what her education costs, both in terms of
dollars and in sacrifice.

I can only hope you have children (and eventually grandchildren) of whom you
can be proud.

Elizabeth Richardson

TCullen95 wrote:
- quote -

In talking with clients about this issue it seems more often than not,
financially secure people want to plan for their children whatever their
parents planned for them. So if they worked their way through school,
and now they're successful, they want their children to follow that path
as well. If they got a full ride, they want to provide that. I guess
this isn't surprising, it's pretty much the same with a lot of parenting
questions.

Economically, college pays off a great deal for the majority of people
who attend - you may have seen those studies showing the lifetime
projected income vs. the cost. I've never seen a study though that also
looked at whether that education was paid for/not, and the effect on
long-term financial success. My guess is that it would be highly
dependent on the individual. Some would benefit from the
discipline/restrictions of a work study or a student loan, some would
benefit from the extra time for classes/study & the ability to make
life/career decisions based on real preferences rather than bills.

I think it really comes down to a personal decision though, and there
are good points on both sides of it. It certainly provides a lot more
freedom when the parent pays these costs, but there are plusses and
minuses to providing that freedom. And different kids will react
differently...some seeing it as a ticket to party their way through
school, others as a responsibility to Mom & Pop for giving up a vacation
home so they could give you a jump start. If you believe that your
children carry a lot of your personality traits, and that you benefitted
from doing it a certain way, that could lean in favor of imposing the
same on your children.

If someone wanted to think of it in terms of "maximizing family wealth"
I think it would strongly favor paying college in full, if there's the
ability to do so. That way the cost is shifted from individuals who are
at their lowest earning years (lowest ability to pay - recent grads) to
the parents, who are likely at their highest earning years (highest
ability to pay). The transfer is one of the few that is free of gift tax
(payments for education, even if they total say $200,000, are free of
gift tax). And by removing that debt burden, in those early jobs your
kids will have the free cash to, say, max out their Roths & do other
kinds of tax-efficient savings that are only possible at lower income
levels. So in one step you not only provide the degree that will give
them the career options, you also give them the opportunity to
jump-start their savings right at graduation. I don't know if many
people think in those terms, but if you do, those may be things to consider.

-Tad

"TCullen95" <TCullen95[at]aol.com> wrote in message
news:5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com...
- quote -

undergrad and grad school. Looking back, I wouldn't have had it any other
way. I worked full time and went to school nights and weekends. I got a
huge jump on others my age career-wise. I got my first "professional"
position while still at the junior level in undergrad school, and by the
time I graduated, I was making double what a new graduate with no experience
would make. Plus, I learned a heck of a lot about supporting myself. I
won't pretend it was always easy, but I do say it was a blessing.

"TCullen95" <TCullen95[at]aol.com> wrote in message
news:5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com...
- quote -

There is no law or rule that says you have to pay for anything, especially
when they are an adult.

Parents make up their own minds about this, for MANY varied reasons, and
they are always justified in their decision.

I would not sweat it. Take care of your retirement first, and then tell the
kids to get good grades and participate in outside activities. A good resume
and transcript goes a long ways towards scholarships and merit based
financial aid.

Brent D. Gardner, ChFC
Chartered Financial Consultant
http://members.cox.net/brentdgardner1378/

"Be ever questioning. Ignorance is not bliss. It is oblivion. You don't go
to heaven if you die dumb. Become better informed. Learn from other's
mistakes. You could not live long enough to make them all yourself." - Hyman
George Rickover (1900-86), Admiral, US Navy, advocated development of
nuclear subs & ships

The Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU) and Chartered Financial Consultant
(ChFC), designations owned and exclusively offered by The American College,
signify the highest standards of academic study and professional excellence
in the financial services industry.

"TCullen95" <TCullen95[at]aol.com> wrote
- quote -

My experience is not unlike the above. My parents paid for my first year at a
very nice Eastern school. Then for part-financial reasons, part my own
disappointment with my employment prospects after graduating from this school, I
left, "affiliated" with the military, and received my bachelor's and more. (I'm
keeping this vague because it's the 'net.)

- quote -

My parents did not say to me, "You go to the best college into which you can
gain admission. Pursue your passions, work hard, and find some time to enjoy.
Don't worry about the bill." On the contrary, they worked a guilt trip on me for
spending their money on a 'country club life.' (That's not exactly what it was.
I studied hard. But one of my parents saw the life I led in that one year of
college as indulgence.) So I left, was freed of the guilt trip (which is nice),
and found my way to my Bachelor's and then a yuppie income for years. And yet,
money is not everything. The nice Eastern college I left noted that its purpose
was not to teach a vocation but to give its students an appreciation of *life.*
True to this, I feel that the intellectual caliber of my work and thus
ultimately social acquaintances of the past is low. For decades their priorities
were beer, women, movies, the mall. I never connected with this. I'm not in this
profession any longer.

In the c. 1968 movie "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner," the Sidney Poitier
character's father starts lecturing his son about how many miles he'd walked and
thousands of pounds of mail he'd carried to pay for his son's college and
medical school. The son was a responsible fellow and extremely successful MD.
The father said his son "owed him." The Poitier character listens until his
father finishes and then rebutts him: 'No, you owe me. All that stuff [working
hard as a mailman] you would have done anyway. You brought me into this world.
Your responsibility was to see that I get the best education possible.' It's a
striking rebuke.

I tend to agree with the latter. If I had kids, I would raise them with a solid
work ethic--no free ride per se. But they'd have every advantage I could afford
until the age of about 22. If they wanted college and agreed to work hard
(including finding employment in the summer) and agreed to talk about why I was
paying for it ('cause I loved them but I also want them to realize I personally
can't support them financially forever), and budgeting, I'd pay every cent.
Should they want to go to medical school or the like and gave indications of
being serious about it, I'd strongly consider a generous loan, presuming I'd
raised a kid who would keep the terms of that loan and understand and accept
(with respect and affection) why we shoud have such an agreement in legal
writing.

If you and your husband do not feel you have the money, then explain this to the
kids. Give them other options. I still agree the military (either the academies,
ROTC, or enlisting) is one viable option. Of course I'm not sure if this is
something your kids would want, even with the financial pressure.

I'd be curious as to what your kids said about wanting to go to college; the
military; etc. Whether they think about how to make a living when they're older,
etc...

In article <120120041601282198%john[at]johnweeks.com> , John A. Weeks III wrote:
- quote -

I thought I could pay for tuition directly. Am I mistaken?

- quote -

I agree with you in principle.

i

In article <btv4ms$stt$1[at]pita.alt.net> , Ignoramus26983
<ignoramus26983[at]NOSPAM.26983.invalid> wrote:

- quote -

I would never give a kid that kind of money outright. I know from
first hand experience that many kids that age have a whole list of
things that they want to do, and sitting in college and taking
tests is not one of them. I flunked out of some of the best schools
in the US in my late teens. Later on, when I was paying for the
classes, it meant a whole different thing to me. I was also good
and ready for school in my late 20's, so I knew what it meant to
get a good education.

My advice is to make sure that the kid is ready to apply themselves.
If you want to help them, do a 50/50 match. For every dollar that
they earn or otherwise raise for school, match it dollar for dollar.
That would be a great help, but it still keeps the kid in the game
to have to earn their way through. When one has to earn something,
it has a much greater meaning to them.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 john[at]johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:57:41 CST, TCullen95 <TCullen95[at]aol.com> wrote:
- quote -

Heck, yes. My kids will be paying a reasonable amount for
their college.

When I went to school in the late 80's/early 90's in the SUNY
system, the tuition and R&B was low enough so that I was *just*
capable of paying everything myself, working 3 part-time jobs in the
summer, and 2 during the school year. Unfortunately, that's
no longer the case - from what I've seen of current tuition
rates and financial aid packages, it would be REALLY tough for a
kid to do that now.

But I certainly expect my kids to work summers, and at least
one job while in school. I know far, far too many people
who came out of college with little or no understanding of
budgeting and finances. And, while it may be anecdotal, I
found that my fellow students who made their own way tended
to be more dedicated students. We already have our 3 yr
old "saving" for college - 25% of his $1.00/week allowance
goes for school, and 10% for charity, while the rest goes
in his piggybank. ;-)

In article <5be36cbc.0401121215.15787a0e[at]posting.google.com> , TCullen95 wrote:
- quote -

What a great question.

Personally, I hope that by the time my toddler reaches his college
age, I will have enough money saved up to be able to pay for his
education. Okay, we already have enough, so I hope that we'll have
more.

To me, the only issue is, really, what will make him study the most
and become the most successful person. That would depend on what kind
of young man he turns out to be.

If he is sufficiently motivated to study and succeed, I would prefer
that he concentrates on studies and not on washing dishes or whatever
other jobs other students take up to make spending money and pay for
college. It is more efficient if he has enough time to study, learn a
lot and become rich, and some other, poor student would wash his
dishes and not have enough time to do homework, figuratively speaking.

So I will pay for his living expenses, within reason, and a bit
towards his education. I would like him to have student loans, which
would hopefully motivate him to study better to repay them.

This seems to optimise the outcome for a motivated student.

The key is to somehow make him into a motivated person through better
parenting.

Now, if he is not a motivated person, I would probably make living
expense payments as well as contribution towards tuition contingent on
his grades, and will try to make sure that he is compensated for his
actual effort. If he is stupid, even Cs will do, but if he is smart,
then only A or Bs will do. That sort of thing.

The concept here is to make rewards commensurate with efforts towards
accomplishing a worthy goal.

Do I feel like I have a moral obligation to get my son educated at my
expense? Yes, given that he works towards his success. I want him to
be successful and well off. Parenting is about making sacrifices
towards raising a successful, intelligent person. What good would it
make to die with a ton of money while my son is in some dead end job
because he had to serve in the army, wash dishes, or otherwise waste
his youth to get education.

I don't, accidentally, see this as a big deal. A more important issue
is to how to raise him into a motivated person instead of a loafer.

i

I paid my way through college by joining the Army, because my parents
couldn't afford to pay for the public school I attended. It turned out
to be a good experience that taught me a lot about money and personal
responsibility -- you worry about flunking a course more when you have
to pay to take it over again.

Now I have children of my own, and I'm wondering how much of the cost
of a 4-year degree my husband and I should plan on shouldering
(they're on their own for graduate school).

Anyone out there a parent who refuses to pay for their kid's college
education -- or at least demand that their kids pay for some of it
(either through work-study, students loans, etc.)? Not because you
can't afford it but because you don't feel it's your responsibility to
shoulder the whole load?