Most of the respondents clearly did not read your message closely. In
addition, this is the wrong ng for seeking debtor-friendly, useful
information. Try alt.bankruptcy (or misc.legal.moderated if you have
specific questions).

Apparently you went to a bankruptcy lawyer (and paid him several
thousand dollars?) with a view to filing under Chapter 13. The kind
of budget the court will allow you (schedule J) depends in part on
local practice. But if you have been steered towards Chapter 13, it
must be because you are trying to retain security for one or more
loans, presumably the two cars. It seems to me that you really "have
no assets" a Chapter 7 filing should be possible. But perhaps you need
the "super discharge", or there are complications (certain tax debts,
allegation of fraud or tort liability.

You might want to read the Nolo Press books, which are very good, to
get some idea of the issues. Bankruptcy exemptions in California are
listed online:
http://www.thebankruptcysite.com/exe...california.htm

One issue to consider is whether you should file together or
separately; it is almost always cheaper and usually more advantageous
for a married couple to file jointly (you must be legally married to
do so).

No court, and no wise creditor, will pay attention to your threat to
file bankruptcy in the future. They may hold off for a couple of hours
until you give them a docket number (the usual procedure is to fax
over the front page of a copy of the petition stamped by the
bankruptcy court clerk.

Probably you will want to move your bank accounts, and indeed avoid
having much money in the bank. But don't put your money in the names
of others: that's a fraudulent conveyance and could get your case
dismissed. (You can put it in the name of a revocable living trust,
making it harder to find; and you would declare the RLT in your
bankruptcy filing as an asset of the estate. But this takes some
sophistication you may not have (again a Nolo Press book may be enough
to guide you).

But if you have no assets, and no equity in the cars and are up to
date on car payments, then, indeed, your only risk is garnishment. The
California rules are at:
http://los-angeles-bankruptcy.net/wage_garnishment.htm

But it takes quite some time to get a judgment that could lead to
garnishment, and you can delay that judgment (presumably in favor of
the credit card companies) for months or years. Get caller ID. Assert
your FDCPA (fair debt collection practices act) rights.

As for picking a lawyer: you should go by referral from someone happy
with how he/she had a case dealt with. And you should visit the
bankruptcy court a few times to talk to others, and to see what
happens in a case (particuarly the 341 meeting of creditors). You may
find a congenial and competent lawyer there. Don't go by the yellow
pages or bus stop ads. And a good lawyer can help you with bankruptcy
planning. Your plan to wait until February makes sense; no point in
losing your tax refund.

Remember that your debts incurred in the peference period prior to
filing can cause grief (dismissal for fraud, reconvery of
preferences). Prebankruptcy transfers need to be avoided. Timing of
bankruptcy can prolong your ability to stay in a rented apartment.

You have considerable time to plan. Use it wisely. And take with a
grain of salt "advice" that you get on a newsgroup.






"DIANA" <DESPOSITO[at]ADSMOBILITY.COM> wrote in message news:<9lSXa.17875$It3.466221[at]twister.socal.rr.com> ...

- quote -

I understand that your question was financial only - I was responding to the
post that said you should not consider having a child in your financial
situation.

Personally, I admire you for courage in regards to your child. It's one
thing that you will never regret.

Here's one thing to put it in some perspective - my grandmother and
grandfather raised 9 children during the Great Depression and WW II.

"DIANA" <DESPOSITO[at]ADSMOBILITY.COM> wrote in message
news:u9eYa.21915$It3.552165[at]twister.socal.rr.com...
- quote -

"DIANA" <DESPOSITO[at]ADSMOBILITY.COM> wrote in message news:<u9eYa.21915$It3.552165[at]twister.socal.rr.com> ...
- quote -

That is an illogical argument. That's like saying that someone who
has never owned a car can't make a decision as to whether to buy one
or not. Note - I am not comparing a car to a baby, rather, I am
comparing the have to have not situation.

I would gather that all or most of the people (myself included) that
said it was irresponsible to have a child while in this financial
mess, made the statement with the assumption that you were *NOT*
currently pregnant. You later dispelled this assumption.

That being said, what Holly said about a child not being a necessity
still stands. But that is moot point now, since you are currently
pregnant. Congrats.

- quote -


I don't think anyone here disagrees with this statement.

What Holly et al are telling you, however, is that you need to
seriously reevaluate how you are spending your money. You must spend
less than you bring in inorder to save money and pay off your debt.

Good luck.

--
Mike

DIANA wrote:
- quote -

I suggest that you give up whichever car is the most expensive to own
and drive, regardless of whoever currently drives it the most.

- quote -

That means that you can afford to decrease your withholding slightly.
For example, if you normally get a $600 refund, you can safely decrease
your withholding by $10 per week, etc. The goal is to either get a
minimal refund, or to make a minimal extra payment at tax time.

- quote -

When you file your 2004 taxes, don't forget to apply for the Earned
Income Credit. It will likely cause a major reduction in the amount of
tax that you will owe. And once again, you can decrease your withholding
accordingly.

John Cowart

Yes my business does have growth potential. I will be a stay at home mom so
my option of getting a better paying job is out. If I were home more often
I could make my business bring in more income. My husband is Union and his
job is very stable. We can survive on his income alone if need be. We
planned on Ch 13 because we had extra money to pay off about 75% of our debt
but now with a baby coming we will hold off to see what the situation brings
and how much extra $ it will take from the Ch 13 plan. We are not bringing
a child into a household of poverty. If we don't file BK that WILL be the
case. We have considered giving up my car and keeping only his since he
works 2 minutes from our house! If I needed the car I could just drop him
off at work.

We get a tax refund every year due to my business expenses and my office
being in our house. We rent... not own. After we have the child....April
2004 we do not expect to spend money on entertainment and such and we know
this child will have a loving, caring home with everything it needs. So
maybe we won't be able to buy a home til our child is in school but honestly
we are not ready for that responsibilty yet. We need to handle our
financial affairs first and clean up our credit report. My husband will be
able to retire in 11 years and by then we know my business will be in full
bloom. We will be a decent situation. We will work through this hard time.
Sometimes things don't get better until they get worse. No matter what
people say, our choice to have our "own baby" naturally is the best way.,
while we still can. I don't want to miss the chance and look back with
regrets for not having our own child. My whole question go tturned around
into an ethical issue. Obviously I got a little extra stuff I already knew
besides never getting my financial questions answered.

"Randy H" <randyDELETEusenetCAPS[at]yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93D05632091E2randyDELETEusenetCAP[at]130.133.1.4...
- quote -

"DIANA" <DESPOSITO[at]ADSMOBILITY.COM> wrote in
news:u9eYa.21915$It3.552165[at]twister.socal.rr.com:

- quote -


Congratulations on your pregnancy. There is life after bankruptcy and
a
child will certainly add a lot of joy to a gloomy time. The most
important thing financially going forward is to do a budget EVERY
month
and stick to it. When something unexpected comes up, something else
MUST be cut to cover it. Otherwise, you will be back in trouble
again.
You need to consider less expensive cars if yours are worth over about
$5,000. A $1,000 beater may be fine if you work close to home. If
you
have a fairly long drive to work, there are lots of dependable used
cars
in the $4,000 to $5,000 range.

Also, you must work on the income side of the equation. If you are
making 1/3 of what you were before, you desperately need to be looking
for another job. If I understand correctly, you have a business in
addition to your current job. Does it have growth potential? If so,
get busy with that. How about your husband's work situation? How
many
jobs does he have? In your situation, you should both be pretty much
just working and sleeping. There shouldn't be any time for cable or
other entertainment. If you sold your current cars, bought really
inexpensive ones and picked up $1,000 extra income each month from
part
time jobs, how long would it take you to get current on your bills?
Could you stay afloat financially?

Another thing you need to look at is your income tax withholding. You
mention that you expect a tax refund next year. Why? You need to
have
the correct amount of tax withheld. You are in no position to make
interest free loans to the Treasury Department. Will the child be
here
in 2003? If so, that will change your tax situation dramatically. If
not, be sure to adjust your withholding next January.

"DIANA" <DESPOSITO[at]ADSMOBILITY.COM> wrote in
news:XgbYa.21064$It3.544879[at]twister.socal.rr.com:

- quote -

This child is not "necessary." You and your husband WANT (not "need")
a child, and you can't afford to support it. Sorry to say, that sounds
like a selfish, self-centered, irresponsible approach to parenthood.

You've been married a whole 3 months. You say that you "cannot speak"
for your husband's "foolishness." Yet you think it is a good plan to
jump into having a child when the ink is barely dry on the marriage
certificate, and you have no indication of whether you and he will be
able to manage money together any better than before you were married?

You have plenty of options other than rushing out to have a baby. Your
husband can have the operation, and you can get your finances
straightened out. Then, later, you can have a baby with a sperm donor.
(or with your husband's sperm if you set some aside and have it
frozen, or however they do those things, before he has his operation).
Or you could adopt. Or you could not have kids at all. None of those
options sound ideal to you? You'd rather just have the kid now, AND
not have to pay off your bills? Well, I'd love to just retire right
now and not have to save any more money, but that's not feasible
either. That's life.

- quote -

"They failed to tell us" = "we didn't find out on our own." Sounds a
lot like you're dumping your financial problems in your lawyer's lap
and waiting for a solution. There are books that can be gotten out of
a library to describe the bankruptcy process. "They" are not
responsible for your own education.

- quote -

Oh dear. You are trying to declare bankruptcy and you want to keep
your cable, internet, cell phones, and money for entertainment. How
mean and nasty that they won't let you do that.

Look, my husband and I don't have cable or a cell phone. We have very
modest spending habits for entertainment; we rarely eat out; we have
one subcompact car (and both of us work). We also don't have debt, we
live below our means, and save money. Do you see a potential
connection here? What you think are "needs" are really WANTS. You have
gotten used to living above your means. It is going to HURT to cut
down, but if you really want to get on the right path, you have to do
it.

"Not outrageous" spending on things like that is fine if you have the
money. You don't. Period. If you think you need them for your
business, then rethink how you run your business. Or look for another
job instead.

- quote -

That's $300/month. That's *more* than my husband and I spend on
groceries every month... and I'm not cutting down to the bone, either.
How did they get that number? It's a VERY REASONABLE number, counting
that you will NOT eat out, that you will prepare simple meals from
SCRATCH (not prepared mixes and frozen dinners), and you will pack a
bag lunch to work. It's not rocket science - but if you are used to
eating out a lot, ordering out, and eating lots of packaged prepared
foods, you will have to learn new habits. Hint: pasta is your friend.

- quote -

Go to a budget hair cutting place. Don't buy new furniture or dishes.
Don't buy new clothes. Sell one of your cars (did I hear correctly
that you had two?). Etc. If the grocery budget is any indication, I'm
willing to bet that the other categories are fine as well.

- quote -

It does clarify the situation. You don't know how to live within your
means, and you're determined to ignore anybody who tells you the truth
straight-up, and look for someone who will tell you what you want to
hear instead. The fact that you think that $300/month for groceries is
way too little, and that you think that cable TV, internet, and cell
phones are necessities, tells me that you need a major change of
perspective. You need, in short, to grow up and take responsibility.

If you actually want to learn more about how to live below your means,
you might try reading misc.consumers.frugal-living. But don't post
your sob story there in the hopes that someone will tell you "Yeah,
it's a great idea to have a baby now! And you're right, you are living
on the bare necessities now, yeah, you're doing great, those lawyers
didn't know what they were talking about!" You will get more straight-
up talk, which is what you NEED... though it's not what you WANT.

--Holly

"JJ" <jj[at]nospam.com> wrote in message news:<tE6dnSD6maS79K2iXTWJiQ[at]comcast.com> ...
- quote -

What Holly is saying is that it would be a poor financial decision to
get pregnant and have a baby when you can't even get your act
together, financially.

I can't determine, from the original poster, whether they are indeed
currently pregnant, or just in the process of trying to get pregnant.
If it is the latter, then they need to stop and get a wake up call.
If the former, then they need to consider other options, and perhaps
bankruptcy is one of them. Perhaps they could move in with a parent
and sell their house (assuming they own). Sell a car, etc.

But yes, if you are NOT pregnant, and you can barely keep yourself
afloat financially, it is just plain wrong to have a baby. It is
irresponsible. This was touched on in a separate thread.

Is it ethical to bring a child into the world knowing you can't fully
care for it? Sounds like a question for alt.philosophy.

Mike

"JJ" <jj[at]nospam.com> wrote in
news:tE6dnSD6maS79K2iXTWJiQ[at]comcast.com:

- quote -

I read the message as saying that the OP was planning on having a child,
not that one was already on the way. My response was based on that. If
that's incorrect, at least the OP might keep my response in mind for
future expansions of the family.

--Holly

On 6 Aug 2003 09:15:01 GMT, JJ <jj[at]nospam.com> wrote:
- quote -

Eh? From what the OP said, it appears she's not actually
pregnant, yet. Where exactly does "the child would be
better off dead" come into it?

And I agree with the previous respondent - if they're not mature
enough to manage their own lives, why in the world
would they want to add in all of the stress,
aggravation, and financial issues around even having
one child?

"DIANA" <DESPOSITO[at]ADSMOBILITY.COM> wrote in message news:9lSXa.17875$It3.466221[at]twister.socal.rr.com...
We have severe CC debt to the tune of $70,000 +. We don't want to file bankruptcy now because it would most likely be chapter 13. We are going to have a child and want to wait because our income will change drastically. What happens if we get a judgement in the meantime. We are in CA and have no assetts. Payments on 2 cars.

Can we tell the court we are planning on filing BK?
Will that discourage them from collecting or will they just proceed for the time being.
Before wages are garnished can will fill out our expenses for the court to show them we don't have hardly any extra money to spare?
I saw the forms online called Financial statement (wage garnishment)

We don't want to file BK 13 and then have to pay extra to convert to BK 7. That just doesn't make good sense. We know we won't file until we receive our tax return for 2003 next February. We will have alot of expenses preparing for a child and I would almost bet ch 13 would not leave us or allow any extra money for expenses for a child that isn't even born yet.

Anyone have any recommendations for a GOOD lawyer in Los Angeles county, San Fernando Valley? We just went through a BIG waste of time with one.

Thanks in advance for any experience info and advice.

----------------------------------------------

You are already 70k in credit card debt and have reneged on your promise to pay, there is nothing there to encourage them to wait. If you have ignored their warnings and not talked with them expect them now to exercise all their rights now.

Is there some extraordinary reason you rang up the debt in the first place?

How did the first lawyer waste your time?

You are in for a very difficult time ahead, you need to review where you are and how you got there.

"DIANA" <DESPOSITO[at]ADSMOBILITY.COM> wrote in news:9lSXa.17875
$It3.466221[at]twister.socal.rr.com:

- quote -

are going to have a child and want to wait because our income will
change drastically. What happens if we get a judgement in the
meantime. We are in CA and have no assetts. Payments on 2 cars.

Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but IMO it is the height of
irresponsibility to even CONSIDER having a child when you can't even
live within your means now. It sounds to me that you are planning on
knowingly increasing your expenses while trying to escape paying for
expenses that you've incurred in the past.

If you genuinely need to declare bankruptcy (and I have no information
on whether or not you're suffered from unfortunate events outside your
control, or just have spent carelessly), then so be it. But I would
say that the **responsible** thing to do for your future would be:

1) Go through bankruptcy and whatever that entails.

2) Learn to live within your means. If you can't figure out how to
spend less than you earn, then you will just be traveling down the
same path to bankruptcy again.

3) Actually save some money, over and above paying your bills. That
means learning to live *below* your means.

4) Then, and only then, consider having a child. What kind of future
can you plan for your family if you can't manage your household
finances? A pretty lousy one, I'd say - so as much as it stings, I
would certainly put the expanding-the-family plan on hold. Maybe that
will motivate you to get your financial house in order.

I'm not one of those people who believes that it's OK to have a kid
just because you want to, no matter what your financial/social/health
circumstances. If you and your spouse can't support your family, you
have no business adding to it. For your own sake as well as your
child's.

--Holly

We have severe CC debt to the tune of $70,000 +. We don't want to file bankruptcy now because it would most likely be chapter 13. We are going to have a child and want to wait because our income will change drastically. What happens if we get a judgement in the meantime. We are in CA and have no assetts. Payments on 2 cars.

Can we tell the court we are planning on filing BK?
Will that discourage them from collecting or will they just proceed for the time being.
Before wages are garnished can will fill out our expenses for the court to show them we don't have hardly any extra money to spare?
I saw the forms online called Financial statement (wage garnishment)

We don't want to file BK 13 and then have to pay extra to convert to BK 7. That just doesn't make good sense. We know we won't file until we receive our tax return for 2003 next February. We will have alot of expenses preparing for a child and I would almost bet ch 13 would not leave us or allow any extra money for expenses for a child that isn't even born yet.

Anyone have any recommendations for a GOOD lawyer in Los Angeles county, San Fernando Valley? We just went through a BIG waste of time with one.

Thanks in advance for any experience info and advice.